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There is no logic to the market. All the shorts (and analysts) are saying there is no demand. Not sure why you would invest a "logical reason" that nobody is talking about.

That's not accurate. I have seen plenty of shorts fully aware of this margin picture I am describing. You will frequently see on Reddit or Twitter references to the sr+ being effectively nil margin, or they will reference declining ASPs which is also a reference to same problem.

Saying there is a 'demand problem' is unspecific language for anyone to use and should be avoided as I have pointed out before. Demand for what? At what price and margin?

Also this isn't very complicated or obscure math so it is unlikely that serious institutional investors would miss it. Saying that the margin picture which fundamentally determines profitability is disappointing and has lead to disappointing stock performance seems superior to just claiming it is vicissitudes in a bull market.
 
ASPIRATIONS ??
Those are fine for products on the horizon, but definitely not for the next quarter's financials/deliveries. IMO, those should be relatively low risk for failure to hit/high likelihood of success rather than high risk aspirational numbers partly based upon hope, particularly during an ongoing ramp with lots of execution challenges/problems.
 
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I did see a poster on Electrek mention the same behavior. I haven’t observed it, but I’m not sure if I’ve ever been in that situation.
Perhaps CR got huge donations from labor unions, fossil fuel and ICE manufacturers. They sure as well aren't serving the best interests of their members, such as myself.

The solution I'd like to see pursued would be to bring these concerns directly to the attention of ALL of their donors, most of which are probably honest.

Naw, CR's experience reflects my experience with EAP (and frankly, everyone else's outside of this forum).
 
That's not accurate. I have seen plenty of shorts fully aware of this margin picture I am describing. You will frequently see on Reddit or Twitter references to the sr+ being effectively nil margin, or they will reference declining ASPs which is also a reference to same problem.
Vast majority of shorts literally think they will deliver fewer 3s in Q2 than Q1. See Troy's spreadsheet. The guys who got close to Q1 numbers (because they were low balling) also have super low numbers for Q2.

Also this isn't very complicated or obscure math so it is unlikely that serious institutional investors would miss it. Saying that the margin picture which fundamentally determines profitability is disappointing and has lead to disappointing stock performance seems superior to just claiming it is vicissitudes in a bull market.
You can say whatever you want, but there is no basis for this thinking being true.

Avg Yahoo analyst estimate seems to use 90k deliveries and 20% margin. I've posted this before.
 
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Yes. I took s/x up close to 85k because it was the only way to get the actual gross margin on model 3 high enough to hit 15% which is explicitly claimed. So by looking at revenue you further close in on the answer.

I've actually been favoring Tesla by giving them a 50% implied incremental margin on upgrade delta between sr+ and higher trims, but the margin is likely higher which is actually worse for the cost picture.

People shouldn't allow others to derail them from thinking about this. It is the most important fact right now, and the most logical reason the stock has been imperiled. If costs remain this high, Tesla can only crawl out of the profit hole by selling a highly unlikely number of 45k$+ configurations and the unit sales count for SR+ ends up being fairly inconsequential.
Won't Shanghai go a long way toward solving this? Margins should be much better on the SR+ produced there. Fremont shifts back to LR trims plus model Y. Granted, they have to get through a few quarters to get there, but it's not far in the future at this point. I have a difficult time imagining the GMs not getting much better by Q1 2020. The stock may suffer until they get there, but after the capital they raised, Tesla is in solid shape to deal with several quarters of lower gross margins.
 
Awesome, thanks. Have you watched that CR video of the 3 driver/testers sitting around a table just shaking their heads at how frightened they were when they tried this option?

They all claimed it tried to change lines into a left lane with a fast-approaching car and they had to override it, and it was so stressful and unsafe. Of course no video. And all other video bloggers have raved about how safe and conservative the lane changes, ESPECIALLY into an adjacent lane with a fast-approaching vehicle in that lane.

My intent is not to drag the investment forum into an AP discussion, but to ask what is going on with CR. Are they making this stuff up, or are they just totally clueless about using the AP? Or maybe the AP is programmed to behave more aggressively in Connecticut? If they are clueless, is there someone that can get them to do a proper test with video? I sure would like to see CR become at least not hostile to Tesla, which they seem to be lately.

I didn’t watch the video because I am not supporting CR in any way.

As I noted in previous posts, on two separate occasions the car actually picked up fast approaching cars from behind and coming across lanes and held its lane until they past, so it ‘sees’.

It did make that one lane change today with a faster (than I was going) approaching car but it didn’t cut off the other vehicle or I would have intervened and canceled the lane change. I wouldn’t have normally changed at that moment, but again I’m a super chill driver and quite defensive in my driving yielding to other drivers almost always.

Did they say which lane change setting they had on? Mild? Reg/Standard? or Mad Max? That may play a bit of a role in the aggressive nature.

Having seen a few of these, ‘OMG! Did you see the car just try and kill me?’ videos, I wouldn’t put it past the CR guys being a bit on the dramatic side by nature and maybe not entirely understanding what they should and should not expect the car to do. It might also have to do with producing a video - we need to jazz it up a bit to get more eyeballs.
 
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I had to replace a tire on my S. While I was in the waiting room, I was talking to another customer who drove a 911 twin turbo. He had driven a 3 performance and was thinking that might be his next car. The girl behind the desk piped in that "Yeh, but they catch on fire." Don't tell me we don't have a brand problem. If we do advertise, we should tout the benefits of EVs first and then mention that Tesla is the leader in EVs.

Please. That’s a willfully ignorant girl behind the counter of a tire store.

I’m sure you educated her so she wouldn’t embarrass herself again in front of customers by talking out her derrière.
 
I had to replace a tire on my S. While I was in the waiting room, I was talking to another customer who drove a 911 twin turbo. He had driven a 3 performance and was thinking that might be his next car. The girl behind the desk piped in that "Yeh, but they catch on fire." Don't tell me we don't have a brand problem. If we do advertise, we should tout the benefits of EVs first and then mention that Tesla is the leader in EVs.

Hate when I get into my S and it just explodes. One of my only complaints about this car. Of course my gf laughs when it happens but she’s Satan
 
Faraday Future had both factory and financial backing, before utterly collapsing. This is not an easy business to get into. Not saying Rivian will fail(I hope they don’t), but nobody should be taking their survival as a given.
Faraday had flaky Chinese money and a piece of Las Vegas desert land with some Caterpillars on it when they collapsed. Rivian is backed by Ford, Amazon, Sumitomo and Standard Chartered Bank. Their fully equipped factory built Mitsubishis in volume a few years ago.

I never said Rivian was a lock to succeed or that it would be easy for them. But they're in a different league than FF, Lucid, etc. They're more like 2011 Tesla.
 
That's not accurate. I have seen plenty of shorts fully aware of this margin picture I am describing. You will frequently see on Reddit or Twitter references to the sr+ being effectively nil margin, or they will reference declining ASPs which is also a reference to same problem.
Can you please give examples?

Babycharts aka @teslacharts is now entirely excluding Model 3 from his Norway chart in order to keep the Tesla killer FUD going. So it can’t be him.

@Trumpery45 aka Justin used to trawl the inter webs to find the minutest Tesla service issues ( I used to pass geniune ones on to my Tesla contact , thanks Justin :p). Now he just posts screenshots from this very thread * waves at Trumpery *
 
Given the teardown numbers, I think there's going to turn out to be a lot of low-hanging fruit, depreciation from scrapped equipment, fixed-cost depreciation, etc. in that number. Historically, cost reduction is something Musk and Tesla have actually been *very good* at. I'm sure they'll get it down.
Model 3 COGS have held pretty steady for three quarters. Musk called it "Game of Pennies", not game of low hanging fruit. And there's only about $2k of fixed depreciation per car.
I expect considerably higher battery pack cost savings.
I assume the original pack was not designed by idiots. The automated assembly line failed (surprise!!!) so they have higher labor cost than planned. But GF employment numbers show it's not that much on a per pack basis. 500 or even 1000 per pack savings doesn't move the needle. Also, I used $125/kWh for cells - Musk said they'd be below $100 by now. That offsets any pack savings.
I think that difference is too optimistic. Then there are some other things that are different too, apart from extra motor & battery.
Mostly software. It took a while to figure out if the early SR+ were de-rated MRs or not because the h/w was the same.
You can come up with any COGS for SR+ with low % of SR+ sales in Q1 by making small changes in LR COGS
But you have to sanity check your results. 34k SR+ COGS vs. 49k LR-AWD COGS is not credible.
 
With the Model S body life expectancy of 25 years, and the bty pack half of that, owners of Model S cars will demand battery replacements. As this bty swap video shows, this isn't a "deep retrofit"; its a planned feature

You are right it was a planned feature. But for example when they added the titanium impact bar to protect the battery pack from road debris the swap went from ~5 minutes to ~15 minutes. (And couldn't be fully automated.) Since the battery swap idea died, probably mostly because the ZEV credit advantage was taken away, who knows what other changes they have made since then to make the swap take even longer. (Though it will always be quicker than for the Model 3 which requires taking most of the interior apart to unbolt the pack from the inside.)
 
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Awesome, thanks. Have you watched that CR video of the 3 driver/testers sitting around a table just shaking their heads at how frightened they were when they tried this option?

They all claimed it tried to change lines into a left lane with a fast-approaching car and they had to override it, and it was so stressful and unsafe. Of course no video. And all other video bloggers have raved about how safe and conservative the lane changes, ESPECIALLY into an adjacent lane with a fast-approaching vehicle in that lane.

My intent is not to drag the investment forum into an AP discussion, but to ask what is going on with CR. Are they making this stuff up, or are they just totally clueless about using the AP? Or maybe the AP is programmed to behave more aggressively in Connecticut? If they are clueless, is there someone that can get them to do a proper test with video? I sure would like to see CR become at least not hostile to Tesla, which they seem to be lately.
The pearl clutching CU "review" was absurd. I commented on the website and was happy to see such a high percentage of knowledgeable AP users also countering the article's premise. But there's going to be more of these freakout columns in the coming months as AP becomes more and more capable. A thorough review is valuable for customers as well as Tesla. I don't mind if the reviewer is abstemious with praise as long as they provide clear context (and video) when they find an issue.
I use AP frequently on decently long drives in all sorts of traffic. Recent versions have stopped alarming me with ghost braking and truck lust. But it still has issues.
Example: On my latest drive over I-5 Grapevine (~30 mi of winding 3-4 lane freeway) NOA made some really stupid lane choices. While in lane 3 of 4 lanes, on an uphill section with semi-trucks going 30-40 MPH why would it choose lane 4 to pass the truck when lanes 1,2 were completely empty? It's quite legal... but dumb. [AP 2.5; V2019.16.2, set to no-confirm lane change, "normal" mode]
 
(Though it will always be quicker than for the Model 3 which requires taking most of the interior apart to unbolt the pack from the inside.)
On the 3 you need to pull the rear bottom seat cushion to unplug from the penthouse. Beyond that, the 40 or so bolts holding the pack up are installed from the outside.
The cushion is easy to remove with a few rotating retainers to turn and a couple connectors to detach.
Tesla Model 3 rear seat cushion removal for camping or cargo : teslamotors

3_pack_bolts.PNG
 
Also this isn't very complicated or obscure math so it is unlikely that serious institutional investors would miss it. Saying that the margin picture which fundamentally determines profitability is disappointing and has lead to disappointing stock performance seems superior to just claiming it is vicissitudes in a bull market.

I might have missed your reply among the many responses, but could you outline this "disappointing" Model 3 SR+ margin story in actual numbers, I simply don't think it's there at all:

Model 3 COGS have held pretty steady for three quarters. Musk called it "Game of Pennies", not game of low hanging fruit. And there's only about $2k of fixed depreciation per car.

Yeah, so, firstly:
  • Going from ~4,700/week to ~7,000/week alone will reduce per unit depreciation from ~$1,970 to ~$1,320, a difference of -$650. (This assumes $120m/quarter fixed depreciation costs.)
  • Once GF3 capacity of 3,000/week is online, depreciation will drop to somewhere around $1,080. (This is estimated with the extra GF3 capex taken into account: $140m/quarter fixed depreciation costs.) That's a difference of -$890.
This is NOT a game of pennies even in the GAAP space.

But secondly and more importantly, why are we even talking about non-cash costs of goods components such as depreciation? Arguably it matters to GAAP income and EPS, but Tesla's growth is defined by the Model 3 (and Model Y) cash generation ability and cash margin, which as Q3 and Q4 established and Q1 reaffirmed, i.e. it has been fantastic for the Model 3 for the past 3 quarters, non-stop.

The good cash story is admittedly buried deep in the Q1 results, it's masked by the dis-economies of scale and payables contraction caused by the sudden halt in Model S/X deliveries from Q4 to Q1 - from tailwind-from-heaven season to headwinds-from-hell season, magnified by the tax credit cliff, the leak of the Raven refresh plus it was exacerbated by the cell supply constraints on the Model 3 side which kept it from counter-balancing the S/X drop.

We can approximate the "real" Model 3 margin by starting from Model 3 GAAP CoGs:
  • minus depreciation
  • minus stock compensation expenses
I.e. it's the raw cash margin plus probabilistic future expenses included such as warranty reserves.

I.e. there's a significant gap between GAAP CoGs and 'real' CoGs, of around ~$4,000.

Put differently: when Elon's leaked email said $38k CoGs for the Standard Range model? Real margin was more like $34k. Still not good enough for a $35k entry model and it's prudent they are emphasizing the SR+, but very good for a $40k ASP entry model, it defines a minimum Model 3 margin of ~17%, and this was 6 months ago, without additional improvements in efficiencies included.

(Also, Model 3 didn't have any significant recalls that I'm aware of, chances are that its current warranty reserves are possibly overly cautious. That too might add another couple of hundred dollars in margin improvements over time as Tesla establishes the warranty expense baseline.)

Put differently: Model 3 production would be fully sustainable even if all sales were at exactly the minimum ASP of $40k and if the production rate got stuck at 5k/week forever - but they aren't stuck there: Zach said in the conference call that ASP's started rising again after the SR+ rush, and I think there's good reasons to believe that Fremont production is probably somewhere between 6k-7k/week, with GF1 having in excess of 7k/week production capacity - which will be needed to keep Shanghai supplied with battery packs.

Obsessing over GAAP CoGs and smoothly pivoting from 'cash burn' fearmongering when it suits them to GAAP CoGs expense overcharging is really what TSLAQ does every time they want to distract how much inherent cash generation ability the Model 3 has even at 5k/week production rates - let alone at 7k/week and 10k/week rates.

(Not advice though, I've been wrong before and will be wrong in the future as well.)
 
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How do you know ?

Anecdotally, people I've talked to use EAP all the time and have figured out at what places they should disengage etc.

Anecdotally, among owners I personally know or have spoken with, I don't know anyone who doesn't treat AP as the experimental beta product that it is, which must be constantly monitored. AP, much less NOA is not a system that can be relied upon, because of issues such as raised by CR.

Don't get me wrong, I use EAP all the time when alone in the car. TACC works great (even in stop-and-go traffic) and the car steers itself to keep in its lane if there are no sharp turns, lane splits or merges. Beyond these functions in limited situations, however, I do not know anyone who thinks AP is reliable enough to be relied upon. Tesla owners I know generally don't think NOA is worth bothering with.

Until the CR article, my overwhelming perception from media reports is that a Tesla can basically drive itself. My perception is not alone, because non-Tesla owners always ask me how the car drives itself. In that sense, my hat's off to CR for accurate reporting. CR's headline that NOA is not better than a human driver cannot be disputed, except here on TMC.

I have posted on other threads about why the reported experience of those here seem so different from my own, and have asked for videos of AP working well. Tam has a provided some amazing videos that has made me consider whether my driving style is simply not suited to having aa car take over driving for me.

The relevance to this investing thread is, Elon has recently been pivoting the TSLA bull case toward FSD, autonomy and Robotaxis next year. Elon touting FSD features that seem very far off worries me the case for TSLA has weakened.
 
I assume the original pack was not designed by idiots. The automated assembly line failed (surprise!!!) so they have higher labor cost than planned. But GF employment numbers show it's not that much on a per pack basis. 500 or even 1000 per pack savings doesn't move the needle.
As you stated directly above this point - cost reduction is a game of pennies across the board. just this one part will save many pennies. It is reasonable to expect Tesla to continue to reduce their costs over time - nearly all supply agreements have price reductions on a per unit basis as volumes increase.

Also, I used $125/kWh for cells - Musk said they'd be below $100 by now. That offsets any pack savings.

The $100 figure would have been based on volume assumptions and we know that GF1 was cell limited up until Q1/Q2, with the new jigs expected this month and volume expected to increase we should see this figure to continue to grind lower.

So in the not too distant future if Pana get their cell production running smoothly we could see the following cost reductions from just the items recently discussed on this board:
  • cell reduction in price from $125 per KWh to (say) $110 - c.1k saving
  • pack savings - say $750 using the non-serious example above - although not an unreasonable expectation if the pack becomes more simplified and automated with a new design and manufacturing process
  • With the cell restriction gone - M3 production should accelerate towards the target 7k per week from the 5k per week production in Q1 - depreciation therefore goes to $2k*(5k/7k) = $1.4k - another $600 saving
Just these changes already reduce the cogs by another $2k, bringing your COGS estimate down to around $36k.

This is literally only 2 components out of thousands, it is unreasonable to think there wont be substantial savings from nearly all components as production increases another 40% from Q1 into Q2/Q3.

As has been quoted here already, two separate tear downs have shown the parts bill to be as low as $18k and all in COGS to reasonably be able to hit a target of under $30k. This is good news. I would only be concerned about COGS if there wasn't a clear path to strong profitability. We all realise that this is Tesla's first mass produced vehicle and they wont get everything perfect on day 1 but we do know from past experience that they are fantastic at iterating their production processes to reduce costs.