Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[mongo]

But apparently “There's IMHO no real logic to a capacitor in an EV”

Right. As a primer, the largest Maxwell capacitor is 3V 3,400 Farad. That is 4.25 Wh. A Tesla 2170 is ~3.75V @ 6 Ah, or 22.5 Wh, five times the energy.
Maxwell 's cap is 138x60mm or a 1460 cell, so it is a little smaller, but not 5 times. 2170s also have significantly less droop that fully discharging a capacitor.

They can take/ source large currents, but not for very long. Where these could be handy is in power filtering/ short term backup. They can handle 225 Amps of ripple at 40 degrees C and have a rated 10 year lifespan at 100 Amps. With an oversized inverter, they could potentially get one through their home AC startup transient.

http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/3V_3400F_datasheet.pdf

 

[Cobbler]

From the Maxwell Technology presentation from last month:
">300 Wh/kg Demonstrated with Path to >500Wh/kg identified"
"16x Production Capacity Density Increase; 10-20%+ "
"Cost Reduction versus State-of-the-Art Wet Electrodes Technology"
"Enablement & Environmentally Responsible: No Solvents, Next Gen Materials, Cobalt-Free, Solid State"

Current M3 2170cell has around 240Wh/kg energy density. This is a huuuugge step forward!!

 

[KarenRei]

From the Maxwell Technology presentation from last month:
">300 Wh/kg Demonstrated with Path to >500Wh/kg identified"
"16x Production Capacity Density Increase; 10-20%+ "
"Cost Reduction versus State-of-the-Art Wet Electrodes Technology"
"Enablement & Environmentally Responsible: No Solvents, Next Gen Materials, Cobalt-Free, Solid State"

Current M3 2170cell has around 240Wh/kg energy density. This is a huuuugge step forward!!

Let's not confuse lab tech with commercial tech. Everyone and their cousin has some great lab tech.

That said, Tesla clearly liked what they saw. Keep in mind: Tesla's top criteria is always cost, not density. As Musk** noted previously, everyone always comes up to Tesla with some presentation about their shiny new battery tech, always boasting immediately about energy and power density. Tesla always interrupts their pitch with: what's your cost at scale? And if they can't answer it, or answer it too high, they're shown the door.

** I think it was Musk; it might have been some other Tesla official involved in battery development who mentioned this. But I think it was Musk; I'd need to dig it up again.

 

[scaesare]

Maxwell 's cap is 138x60mm or a 1460 cell

Wouldn't that be a 14060?

 

[Nocturnal]

Link to a story on that?

Edit: VW's Electrify America buys Tesla devices for EV charging stations | Reuters

This is a glimpse into the larger upside of Tesla that doesn't involve building cars. With such a lead in storage, charging etc. even if Tesla's car sales lead erodes (which it will, can't stay at 80% forever) they will still be profiting from their network and other solutions.

 

[Pezpunk]

This is a glimpse into the larger upside of Tesla that doesn't involve building cars. With such a lead in storage, charging etc. even if Tesla's car sales lead erodes (which it will, can't stay at 80% forever) they will still be profiting from their network and other solutions.

the EV market is no more and no less than the overall automotive market. Tesla's market share is not eroding, it's increasing rapidly.

(granted, from that point of view, it ain't no 80% either. )

 

[Toolsmack]

Right. As a primer, the largest Maxwell capacitor is 3V 3,400 Farad. That is 4.25 Wh. A Tesla 2170 is ~3.75V @ 6 Ah, or 22.5 Wh, five times the energy.
Maxwell 's cap is 138x60mm or a 1460 cell, so it is a little smaller, but not 5 times. 2170s also have significantly less droop that fully discharging a capacitor.

They can take/ source large currents, but not for very long. Where these could be handy is in power filtering/ short term backup. They can handle 225 Amps of ripple at 40 degrees C and have a rated 10 year lifespan at 100 Amps. With an oversized inverter, they could potentially get one through their home AC startup transient.

http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/3V_3400F_datasheet.pdf

Unfortunately, I don’t think you are just making up new words, so I’m just gonna nod my head and act like this is what I thought too...

 

[Chunky Jr.]

It wouldn't surprise me if other EV companies license access to the Supercharger network. Tesla could then collect a license fee per car and/or a fee for charging. At the rate the SC network is growing, it will be prohibitively expensive and time consuming for another car company to try and match that, and they probably wouldn't even want to.

Once there are enough cars using SC, I could see Tesla licensing the rights to own/operate a SC to third parties.

 

[winfield100]

WTF. I am struggling to scroll past all the links to go to the comments section of Seeking alpacas article.

Edit: Funnily enough, the comments are gold

OT OT ^^ ^^
I am on permanent moderation on Sleeze Kinky Alfalfa, BUT there was a nice comment here i managed to get posted
<leer> (this may increase my moderation) ) oh, and thaanks to whomever gave me the idea........
(he has the cognitive dissonance problem, delete my troll comment, but lose a penny recompense from SA)

 

[KarenRei]

Once there are enough cars using SC, I could see Tesla licensing the rights to own/operate a SC to third parties.

Doesn't Sheetz own their own?

 

[Nocturnal]

the EV market is no more and no less than the overall automotive market. Tesla's market share is not eroding, it's increasing rapidly.

(granted, from that point of view, it ain't no 80% either. )

Eroding as a % of total market, not as an absolute number of cars. And just to be clear, I think it will still be several years before anyone makes a dent in their share. It's just that I think the non-auto part of the business will be the biggest growth driver.

It wouldn't surprise me if other EV companies license access to the Supercharger network. Tesla could then collect a license fee per car and/or a fee for charging. At the rate the SC network is growing, it will be prohibitively expensive and time consuming for another car company to try and match that, and they probably wouldn't even want to.

Once there are enough cars using SC, I could see Tesla licensing the rights to own/operate a SC to third parties.

Those that don't consider it would be foolish, especially small players. VW can afford to build a network, but Rivian and the tier 2 makers definitely can't. I think it's an ego thing to some.

 

[anthonyj]

Someone really doesn’t want it to run, wow

 

[mikevbf]

As a final note, again a testimony of confidence from Tesla just to spend $200 m shows us that they continue what is required as a market leader that is invest in innovation and never rest.

I remember in a past earnings call Elon saying he does not like the concept of moats, but instead thinks of Tesla's competitive advantage as a significantly higher rate of innovation. The complex part is Tesla simultaneously wants to catalyze the advent of sustainable transportation and energy. The way Tesla accomplishes both simultaneously is through rapid innovation while sharing patents. It has never been clear to me if Tesla shares all their patents in battery innovation. This has always seemed the area Tesla keeps most under wraps so as to stay ahead of the competition. Does anyone know if Tesla shares all their battery research patents?

 

[KarenRei]

Green

(At least briefly... returning soon )

 

[Chunky Jr.]

Doesn't Sheetz own their own?

Not sure. I'm thinking third party branded chargers similar to the Kettleman City SC. Lounge, etc. EV pit stops.

 

[brian45011]

Your statements are true enough, but you vastly understate the potential within present structures of storage solutions to replace peaker plants. For wind and solar there are more impediments although those are becoming more prevalent too. I hasten to confirm I am not an expert either, I just watch actual deals being made,

The "quote" you used omitted well over a hundred words including an entire paragraph between "stay" and "to provide." That omission totally distorts the content of the full statement. The convention is to use an ellipsis " ..." to indicate omitted words.

Reciprocity raised the peaker issue by implying Tesla could avoid demand charges at SuperCharger locations simply by entering into private, bi-lateral transactions with utilities to add stationary storage throughout their systems. My view is that any such transaction would not only need regulator approval, but likely draw intervention from other utility customer groups/constituents.

Utilities here have been integrating stationary storage into their systems for nearly a decade--AES was among the first. Which actual deals have you watched that were completed without regulator involvement?

 

[ZsoZso]

The Ultracapacitors could be used in addition to the batteries, not as a replacement.
Think new roadster, adding a small pack of ultracapacitors can achieve a huge burst-power output for acceleration and also for regen breaking, then the energy is reachared-from / fed back to the main battery. So they do not need large capacity, just a buffer.

 

[Tslynk67]

Nice...

 

[KarenRei]

Please, people: anyone who's not done the math on how adding ultracapacitors actually affects EVs (vs. the same mass/volume of batteries), please stop commenting until you've actually done so.

 

[AlexS]

Please, people: anyone who's not done the math on how adding ultracapacitors actually affects EVs, please stop commenting until you've actually done so.

You mean this:
Ultracapacitors can be connected in parallel with batteries to leverage benefits in both energy density and power density to create a more efficient, more robust overall system. Ultracapacitors are ideally suited to two of the fastest growing solutions in the automotive market: regenerative braking, i.e. KERS, and start/stop systems.

Reliable and safe ultracapacitors for automotive engineering