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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I saw several posts suggesting selling the Model 3 MR as SR with software limited pack.

The new battery module which is "lighter, better and cheaper" is already being made I think - carsonight has said something like it - and Elon also guided production of the new pack in Q1 2019.

I believe we'll see the Model 3 SR for sale soon. It's just not finished yet.
How do you account for the website stating 4-6 months? Osborning concerns and/or forgetful?

This assumes that lowering price expands the market. There's also the possibility that lowering the price doesn't expand the market, especially in scenarios where most people don't know much about your product. Example, if Tiffany's lowers their prices on their products by 5%, would it really expand their market?
Dave - I would not have invested in Tesla if it wasn't for all your great posts all those years ago. It has been a tough road these last few years which has made us all a bit "jumpy". There is evidence that Elon is less interested in SP than perhaps we thought because he is no longer at Wall Street's beck and call. So, I get your newfound scepticism. However, this post...speechless.
 
Unfortunately, Tesla just mass cancelled all deliveries in the Netherlands planned for tonight. Several customers got the call while driving to the delivery center (sounds familiar, you'd think Tesla had learned its lesson). Conflicting reports between 'logistics issue' and 'firmware issue'. Everyone is rescheduled for tomorrow. There was at least one delivery earlier in Belgium, unclear if there were others.

Can't say I'm surprised, unfortunately. What does @tinm call it -- CCC?
 
This assumes that lowering price expands the market. There's also the possibility that lowering the price doesn't expand the market, especially in scenarios where most people don't know much about your product. Example, if Tiffany's lowers their prices on their products by 5%, would it really expand their market?

I suspect that they just wanted to get the price of the mid-range version down to $35,000 when all cost savings are considered. The plan appears to be to entice more prospects into ordering now rather than waiting for the short-range version with a base price of $35,000. This would allow for more of the higher margins and profits coming from options not in the base version.
 
Hi all, this is my first post. I am a TSLA shareholder since 2013 and a Model 3 owner since May 2018. I just wanted to confirm the Amazon Tesla store was working earlier. I bought a hat at 4:30 EST. It's now sold out. More revenue for Tesla :)

FYI the Amazon Tesla store has been taken down. Apparently they sold out of everything in a few hours. They may need to build another Gigafactory for merchandise. o_O
 
CNBC seems like it is about to do its normal Tesla bashing. Going into commercial, "Tesla lowers prices . . . again." They are going to discuss it in a few minutes.

Ugh CNBC coverage is downright deceitful. I couldn't count how many times they've discussed Tesla on their group discussions/panel where they completely ignore the turnaround happening in the company and go with generic fear statements like "I just don't trust Elon and Tesla." What kind of coverage is that?
 
New 13Fs filed in the past 48 hours for holders of over 10 million dollars in TSLA shares:
JENNISON ASSOCIATES LLC Position (shares): 5,322,358 $1,771,281,000
BUY 505,076 shares
JANUS HENDERSON GROUP PLC Position (shares): 67,115 $22,341,000
SELL 205,442
SUMITOMO MITSUI TRUST HOLDINGS, INC. Position (shares) 627,234 $209,415,000
BUY 51,405
COMMERZBANK AKTIENGESELLSCHAFT Position (shares) 503,622 $167,605,000
SELL 10,744

I guess to summarize it, one of the three large funds (over 100 million in tsla) bought 500,000 shares. That's pretty positive. The other two did essentially nothing. The little guy here, 22 million in telsa, seems to have sold out. 205,000 shares of 270,000 shares.
 
FYI the Amazon Tesla store has been taken down. Apparently they sold out of everything in a few hours. They may need to build another Gigafactory for merchandise. o_O
"Failed Amazon store because there is no demand for anything labelled Tesla."
 
FYI the Amazon Tesla store has been taken down. Apparently they sold out of everything in a few hours. They may need to build another Gigafactory for merchandise. o_O

This is not a joke. Yesterday I checked the online store. I chatted with my wife that going forward, anything we buy we will first check the Tesla store, if they have it, we buy from them. Tesla could start to produce other products.
 
OT
FYI the Amazon Tesla store has been taken down. Apparently they sold out of everything in a few hours. They may need to build another Gigafactory for merchandise. o_O
Yeah it’s gone, the fact it was gone so quickly and the store was a bit poorly designed/planed makes me think it might be fake, set up by an unrelated/unauthorized 3rd-party.

Stuff that was listed might not be from Tesla, maybe people who ordered something would confirm(before returning them).

But, I still think it might be a good idea if Tesla starts to sell low-price high-margin merchs on Amazon(apparels, gadgets, etc).

For example the wireless phone charging power bank alone has the potential to become a half-billion-revenue business.
Also it would be a good advertisement for Tesla energy.
 
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OT

Yeah it’s gone, the fact it was gone so quickly and the store was a bit poorly designed/planed makes me think it might be fake, set up by an unrelated/unauthorized 3rd-party.

Stuff that was listed might not be from Tesla, maybe people who ordered something would confirm(before returning them).

But, I still think it might be a good idea if Tesla starts to sell low-price high-margin merchs on Amazon(apparels, gadgets, etc).

For example the wireless phone charging power bank alone has the potential to become a half-billion-revenue business.
Also it would be a good advertisement for Tesla energy.

Amazon says my $25 hat will arrive tomorrow. I will let you know if it looks like a knock off. I am curious to see the "Made in" label.
 
DaveT said:
This assumes that lowering price expands the market. There's also the possibility that lowering the price doesn't expand the market, especially in scenarios where most people don't know much about your product. Example, if Tiffany's lowers their prices on their products by 5%, would it really expand their market?
Dave - I would not have invested in Tesla if it wasn't for all your great posts all those years ago. It has been a tough road these last few years which has made us all a bit "jumpy". There is evidence that Elon is less interested in SP than perhaps we thought because he is no longer at Wall Street's beck and call. So, I get your newfound scepticism. However, this post...speechless.
Actually, it's a valid observation, I have some of the same thoughts.

The guidance for 2019(360-400k) was close to the Q4 production levels. So, if Tesla sells about the same number of vehicles quarterly, but starts selling more of lower trim models ($35k introduction) it seems that overall margins may suffer. But, supposedly, they are reducing costs at the same time and margins are supposed to stay at about the same level
Emmanuel Rosner

And so to be clear, the - you expect to reach at some point this year - or you're targeting at some point this year 25% gross margins on Model 3, and that's despite introducing the lower-end - or just the standard range Model 3. Is that correct?

Elon Musk

Yes.
So, in theory, no huge impact to profitability, but it does look somewhat scary/aggressive with price cuts happening every month. Although, supposedly, the latest round of price cuts came from the elimination of referral program and not manufacturing improvements.

I personally think that a big impediment to new converts is EV education/charging concerns that people need to clear first before making a switch from ICE to EV. This needs to happen first regardless of pricing. I was not comfortable buying an EV until I read up on all the things of concern to me. And many other people will not want to spend this time and may need some friendly help in this regard.

So, Tiffany's comparison does ring a bell. There are things you may pass up and never learn about them.

In this regard, @AudubonB 's comment regarding marketing by penetration does make sense.
If people in the neighborhood's with lower real estate values begin to see $35k Tesla's on their streets, it may make them consider and evaluate this car purchasing decision once they see that it may be within their grasp / price range.

So, this marketing will be taking place as Tesla increases production rate.

However, again going back to guided average sales for 2019, I am confused as to how they'll be able to get economies of scale and reduce costs w/o actually scaling up production until the very end of the year.

I'm hoping they'll beat their guidance, but don't think I can count on it.
 
So far, Tesla has been meeting or exceeding its Model 3 gross margins every quarter (Q2: >0% vs. 0%; Q3 = >20% vs. 15%; Q4 = >20% vs. 20%). And every quarter they do this intricate price-tuning dance, which ensures that they get their desired margins. I see nothing different happening this time around.

Question, though - I didn't notice any Model 3 gross margin guidance for Q1. Was there any?
 
They are. At the same time, the loss in power compared to temperature isn't as bad as it is with batteries.The spec sheet for this Maxwell module lists the operating temperature range as -40C to 65C. Each of these modules provides ~15kW and weighs ~12lbs, so adding an extra ~60kW of power would increase vehicle weight by 50lbs (less if they are integrated into a car instead of separate modules).

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/257/Maxwell_16VModule_DS_1009363-10-1179674.pdf

Batteries don't so much lose power as they get less efficient and have less usable capacity. If you warm them back up, it come back.

My apologizes if am I misreading your post, but power (kW) is different from energy (kWh). Each of those modules contains only 18 Wh of energy (the same as one 2170 cell), Absolute max current is 1,900A at absolute max voltage of 17V, so yeah it will put out 32kW, for a total of 2 seconds or 15kW for 4 seconds. Not exactly, since the voltage drops as is discharges but you see my point.

Even then, you can't efficiently run an inverter off of a capacitor the is cycled form 100% to 0. Power in = power out = voltage times amps. If the caps are current limited, the voltage falls linearly and the power output does also.
 
However, again going back to guided average sales for 2019, I am confused as to how they'll be able to get economies of scale and reduce costs w/o actually scaling up production until the very end of the year.

I think their guidance of 360k-400k deliveries in the Q4 update letter is fundamentally cautious and conservative, with the assumption of a global recession. Elon made this very clear in the conference call:

Elon Musk

"Okay. And we expect that exponential to continue. So with the deliveries this year being - even in the face of - if there's a global recession - even if there's a global recession, we're expecting deliveries this year to be about 50% higher than last year. And this - it could be a lot more than that. But even with tough economic times, to see 50% growth is pretty nutty."​

In 2018 they delivered 245.5k vehicles, "about 50% higher" deliveries is 370k vehicles - right in the guidance range.

If Brexiters fail to crash the world economy out of spite I don't expect a global recession from any other source. In that case demand will increase even more - I think there's probably some pent-up demand in the U.S., EU and China already, from economic worries.

I.e. of the ~6 global recession risks that were present in Q4:
  • China recession going global
  • China trade war causing global recession
  • Federal Reserve rate hikes causing U.S. recession
  • U.S. housing market crash causing U.S. recession
  • BRExit crash causing global recession
  • U.S. tech sector driven U.S. recession
The probability of all of these has decreased substantially based on latest events and based on latest economic data, with the exception of BRExit, which is still the same delusive cluster-sugar headed for a hard BRExit I warned about months ago. Today's Tusk comments made it finally really clear to everyone in the U.K. that Europe is sick of the egocentric BRExit mess and is perfectly fine with the U.K. performing economic seppuku via hard-BRExit.

Once there's a China trade deal and the UK has finally crashed out of the EU there's going to be good growth everywhere (except the UK that is - but it's a comparatively small market), and Trump certainly doesn't want a U.S. recession right before his re-election fight. The Fed is probably not going to do anything drastic, to stay out of 2020 presidential election politics.

In fact later in the conference call Elon outlined his expectations for 2019 in more detail:

Elon Musk

"I mean, my best guess, this is just a guess, my best guess for demand of Model 3 worldwide is something - in a strong economy, it's something on the order of 700,000 or 800,000 units a year. That's my best guess for demand of Model 3 in a strong economy."

"If the economy goes into a recession, then I think that could be something under 40% less. But I think even in a recession, worldwide demand is still something in the order of 500,000 for Model 3."​

These numbers mean that Tesla expects 40-60% higher Model 3 demand if there is no recession. That would increase the 360k-400k guidance to well above the 500k/year supply that is available.

I.e. I think Tesla is being cautious, they have guided for a recession but are ready to jump on signs of economic growth. There's space for a significant upside surprise.
 
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