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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Not sure if satellite antennas are ideal for cars... But put one starlink at every supercharger and have every Tesla uploading data while supercharging. And add one starlink to the solar roof/hvac solution also.



Yeah, Elon was pretty scoffy/dismissive when someone asked an earnings call or two ago about starlink on cars, saying he didn't see the point (plus the antenna's the size of a medium pizza box and would kill aero) and that it's much more useful for rural internet than cars.... though I can absolutely see receivers at superchargers to provide free wifi.
 
Dojo when complete will be one of the most powerful computers in the world, by some measures possibly the most powerful. The largest supercomputers are all more general purpose than Dojo, so not fully comparable, but are about 0.5 ExaFlop at present (TOP500 - Wikipedia). They are very expensive, with the largest costing on the order of $1 billion, and are the result of multiyear research efforts by corporations and universities that have specialised in supercomputers for decades. One major difference is that supercomputers usually use double floats (64 bits).

It is remarkable that Tesla have been able to design Dojo, so quickly as a first attempt and that it presumably costs much less than $1 billion. Many supercomputers struggle to achieve performance on real-world problems anywhere near the benchmarks, so a "truly usefu exaflop" would be again remarkable.

ExaFlop scale is about what is needed to simulate a human brain, although because we do not yet fully understand how the human brain is organised Dojo will probably fall short of the power and flexibility of the human brain.


That’s interesting.

So TOP500 states rankings of supercomputers PFLOPS in FP64 (double precision). Makes sense since NN doesn’t need FP64 but only FP32 (single precision). Don’t need that amount of precision for Dogo.

My numbers stated in my original post was wrong. Tesla FSD is actually 72 TOPS (teraFLOPS) per chip and we all know it has 2 chips so theoretically it actually does 144 TOPS. It’s been highly optimized so according to this,
FSD Chip - Tesla - WikiChip

it’s 73.3 TOPS theoretically at INT8 not FP32

So DOGO is much more powerful than FSD chip at 1 ExaFLOPS at FP32 but doesn’t need to be FP64 so thankfully Elon will technically not be developing a $500 million supercomputer...most likely multiples smaller. Some reading says FP32 can take between 8 to 32 times less processing time than FP64. So theoretically in a perfectly optimized super computer that many times smaller.
 
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Elon tweeted that it will take another year before DOJO V1.0 will be ready. I thought that project was essential for software 2.0 and FSD. Software 2.0 will be released in about 10 weeks (as per tweet Elon) so before DOJO is operational. I thought I had a grasp of everything, but apparently not. Can someone please explain what DOJO has to do with FSD and why FSD will be released before DOJO is operational?

Supervised Learning

The "conventional" machine learning technique for prediction is supervised learning. For the perception task, this would be:

1) Feed in a whole bunch of video/image sequences from many sources.
2) Manually label all the objects in the sequences you want to track.
3) Build an architecture that takes in all the sequences and makes a prediction on all the objects.
4) Compare those predictions with the actual labels. Use the error between prediction and truth to adjust weights in the neural net (backpropagation) with the goal to reduce the error the next round.
5) When the error rate ceases to continue reducing, basically you stop training it further, and you have your model.
6) Take the model and stick it into HW3.0 where it does the inference step only (make predictions).

This process can be easily rate-limited. If your inference hardware relatively sucks (ahem HW 2.0/2.5) then you can't even handle a big enough model to feed in image sequences, only single images at a time (and downsampled image resolution at that). So the model architecture you can use is limited.

So now Tesla has HW 3.0 running, great so what's the next rate-limiter? Well it could be the amount of compute training capacity, but I haven't read anywhere that this is the case. But the big limiter is manually labeling all the data. This is literally hiring people to go through data sequences and labeling objects (e.g. draw the ROI (region of interest) around it, selecting what type of object it is). Imagine how much data Tesla can pull, but then it all has to be labeled! Just does not scale.

It sounds like Tesla was labeling each image individually. For some key event over a few seconds, they have to keep labeling new image. Obviously this is quite monotonous and takes a lot of time.

With "4D" psuedo lidar, I am guessing they are using one NNet to output some processed version of the video sequence (psuedo lidar) so that objects have permanence (it is known that an objects in one frame is the same object that was there earlier). So now labelers can label objects just once per video sequence.

This will probably 10x the speed of labeling data. So now Tesla has updated the architecture (#3) to input video sequences instead of single images, and they can have more labeled data more quickly to train it. So the accuracy of the models should improve a good mount. Great!

But that is not a long term solution. With more and more cars on the road, Tesla's need to label the data is not going to happen with people manually labeling. Does not scale.


Semi-supervised Learning

Instead, Tesla wants to attempt to do semi-supervised / self supervised learning. This means Tesla uses the data itself to create the labels.

Want to avoid having people label data? Just use drivers' actually driving behaviors. This means you could have the same video sequences input, and the output of the entire model architecture is the what acceleration and turning the car should do. The labels are the actual drivers acceleration / velocity and turning. Tesla has those. There is no manual labeling needed!

This is what is known and end-to-end deep learning. Note I speculated that Tesla would eventually go down this road 3 years ago: [Speculation] Tesla going to use End-to-End Deep Learning to Control Vehicles

The issues are that the model is essentially a combination of modules (perception, planning, etc...) and there is no direct training on the specific modules. There is no image labels, no curb / intersection labels. Just the final output.

So this means not only are the models big, but the training is difficult because learning all the essential components indirectly from driving behavior is less efficient - but there is much more data for it.

So Dojo is needed. It will be able to process all the self-labeled data (which Tesla has in spades) but needs massive compute in order to train such a complex system.

I don't know of a bigger training system in the world that would need to input so much data.

Opinions

Will it work? I think so, long term. If Tesla had Dojo running today, I don't think they would be ready to make it work well. I really think Tesla needs to have all the modules of the eventual end to end system in a very good state first (which they can do via supervised learning). Then Dojo can leverage those "good" models and make them great. If you literally started running the unsupervised model from scratch (literally random weights for all the neural nets) I think it's ability to converge on a great solution would be compromised.

I think this is a great approach long term. I think Tesla can learn a model that can work as well as what cameras will allow.

Now, I have no idea what the final size of such a model will be, and what hardware will be required to run inference on it. It may be more than HW 3.0. I'm not sure Tesla knows either.
 
Why Berkshire Hathaway has so much AAPL stock in their portfolio but yet hold no TSLA.

Is the new technology and the transition to a sustainable future out of Buffet’s comprehension?

No Dividends ...
(recently, could also be at personal level, I think they have rubbed each other wrong, some Nevada Utility/Power issues in history as well, IIRC)
Tesla Insurance might in future impact Gieco in a big way ...
 
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it took him years to warm up to Apple/AAPL, so probably TSLA will be added by 2030.
I don't think Warren will ever warm up to Tesla until the master plan is in motion. It's so hard to understand this company and where the valuation come from and Warren is a firm believer of needing to understand the company. Tesla is the ultimate "what the f just happened?" Company and these analysts couldn't even figure it out with price targets all over the place. Ark had to get like 6 different guys working on analysting them while Munro is x-raying the parts trying to figure out their alien technology.
 
You are off by 1000 or so.

dojo will be made from between 2000 and 20,000 hw3 like boards.

You’re right I stated 60 gigaFLOPS when it’s actually 72 TFLOPS per chip at INT8. But definitely DOGO will be multiples much larger than FSD like in the millions still.

So FSD computer 144 x 10^12 FLOPS for INT8 theoretical calculations. Probably hundreds of times slower for FP32 but it wasn’t optimized for FP32.

Dogo will be 1 ExaFLOPS (10^18 FLOPS) for FP32 calculations. Still going to be multiples smaller than the supercomputers on the TOP500 nearing 1 ExaFLOPS for FP64 (EG. At approximately $500 million to develop Intel Aurora in USA Aurora Supercomputer).
 
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I think the answer would be animosity.
In 2016, I think Buffett utility lobbied against net metering in Nevada, directly impacting SolarCity.
Also, IIRC, Buffett is deeply entrenched in fossil fuel, and generally "the old world".
As others - and Elon himself - said before, WB has this reputation of an ol' sweet granpa but really doesn't deserve it.
 
Why Berkshire Hathaway has so much AAPL stock in their portfolio but yet hold no TSLA.

Is the new technology and the transition to a sustainable future out of Buffet’s comprehension?
BH has underperformed the SP 500 for years. If WB doesnt change soon, it will become obsolete quickly. Banking, insurance, energy, etc... All of these are on the verge of being disrupted in a big way. Without AAPL outperforming the market, BH would be in a bigger hole than it is right now.
 
I don't think Warren will ever warm up to Tesla until the master plan is in motion. It's so hard to understand this company and where the valuation come from and Warren is a firm believer of needing to understand the company. Tesla is the ultimate "what the f just happened?" Company and these analysts couldn't even figure it out with price targets all over the place. Ark had to get like 6 different guys working on analysting them while Munro is x-raying the parts trying to figure out their alien technology.
I don't believe it's so much "they can't figure it out" as it is that they all have bosses and clients who are being disrupted by Tesla. There's literally no incentive for them to be positive. However, as Tesla has completed one milestone after another with no sign of stopping, they also don't want to look like chumps that always get it wrong.