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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I’ll take Clueless for $1000, Alex.

Toyota’s CEO Akio Toyoda says we need to convert existing cars to EVs and hydrogen — just selling new EVs isn’t enough.
He showed off a demo of two vintage AE86 hatchbacks converted to hydrogen and BEV drivetrains.



Can’t make this stuff up. It’s clear where their priorities are…

Exxon, Chevron, & Toyota Are The Largest Anti-Climate Lobbyists, Says InfluenceMap

But I guess all of the additional deaths and climate destruction caused by them actively delaying the transition away from fossil fuels is OK. I mean, it’s not like the CEO tweeted anything that offended anyone, because that would be way worse.
 
I watch this source because I trust it ( I am a cynical SOB), and it is at a level where it is more science-based but not over my head, and I find the presenter oddly-attractive.
And if you really want to fill in a few gaps in your Hydrogen as a fuel knowledge base well, here ya go. The sources seem above reproach.


TLDR: The most up to date science regarding Hydrogen as a fuel is negative on all levels except if Nuclear energy is used to create it.

SabbaticalMod: Now in "...of Merit". Thank you.
 
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On the Tesla Model 3/Y Montreal FB group I see a lot of pissed off customers who took delivery recently of Teslas. I know how they feel because au took a delivery of my 2019 SR Model 3 exactly 2 weeks before the federal government released a 5k incentives so I missed out on a 5k price reduction. Didn’t blame anyone for it and just took a 5k loss when I sold it 2 years later and bought my Model Y. For the people changing cars every 1-2 years that must be a bigger problem than the ones keeping their car 10 years. I was lucky K bought my Model Y when the prices were still low so it’s not a current problem for me however to avoid a bunch of pissed off people I was wondering if decreasing the prices incrementaly 2-3% monthly over 6 months could have pissed less customers in the process. I realize the point was to qualify for the EV rebate however I am trying to be devils advocate for all the people complaining online. The price increases were incremental so I am trying to figure out the Tesla argument to drop the price suddenly instead of small steps.
Dropping the price like that would eliminate the BUZZ created by our Promotion team doing like they did.
And every time it dropped another bit the news would be "once again for the third time in six months Tesla needs to lower the price because of a Demand problem." This way it looks like Tesla knows what it is doing... Maybe this was also done in relation to upcoming Earnings report? If so no telling what those numbers are going to be?????????????????????????????????????????
 
I’ll take Clueless for $1000, Alex.

Toyota’s CEO Akio Toyoda says we need to convert existing cars to EVs and hydrogen — just selling new EVs isn’t enough.
He showed off a demo of two vintage AE86 hatchbacks converted to hydrogen and BEV drivetrains.


Only works if you can do it for $500/car. Any more than that and you might as well buy new or slightly used.
 
I mean, *maybe* VW should have looked at doing this...
5 years ago...
Aerial Footage Shows VW’s Massive Diesel Vehicle Graveyard
Weekend OT: I was bored and found this, might save some other curious people some time. The lot shown in the video thankfully no longer stores the vehicles and there is a pretty big solar farm to the southeast.

1673709584799.png
 
People said that about Chrysler once too, now it's owned by the Stellantis Group in the Netherlands. Kokak was also once considered "too big to fail", but look at it today. GM went bankrupt just 14 years ago!

Things can change very quickly, and sometimes they change in ways which might seem unlikely, yet it still happens.
Most U.S. people will not be happen with bailing out G.M. a second time. G.M. factory: a building that the government pours taxpayer money into.
 
I watch this source because I trust it ( I am a cynical SOB), and it is at a level where it is more science-based but not over my head, and I find the presenter oddly-attractive.
And if you really want to fill in a few gaps in your Hydrogen as a fuel knowledge base well, here ya go. The sources seem above reproach.


TLDR: The most up to date science regarding Hydrogen as a fuel is negative on all levels except if Nuclear energy is used to create it.
I subscribe to Sabine's channel. Be sure to check out her “Is faster-than-light travel possible?” episode.
 
Most U.S. people will not be happen with bailing out G.M. a second time. G.M. factory: a building that the government pours taxpayer money into.
The job loss would be too big though. Auto workers are not those that can easily be re-trained to do something else, unlike bankers. Likewise for Ford.
 
So I’m late to the game and about 19,700 pages behind in this thread, but the massive price cuts stunned me and gave me interest in TSLA for the first time in 2 years. There is no money for any car manufacturer to make in the US market after this bold move by Tesla. I’m shocked at how much they’ve been able to reduce production costs. I picked up a few shares earlier today but I want to give this stock an appropriate amount of investment. I’ve read a few dozen latest pages to get up to date on this thread’s sentiment, but I didn’t see any figure on PT. What do we think would be a realistic target for TSLA in the next 2 years?

This forum generally doesn't speculate on price targets since we are generally HODLers, or at least long term investors. TSLA has had many very quick (like couple of months) 3x or more price moves in its history, both up and down. It is very hard to react when you are caught up in one of those up or downdrafts. "Surely TSLA can't go much higher (or lower) now, can it? I'll just hold off buying (or selling) until it reverses...", and then it keeps running.

To protect oneself from such angst, most of us look at company fundamentals and future earnings power. And on that metric, TSLA has almost always been a buy. Somedays it was less of a buy, somedays (like now) the control board is blaring klaxons saying BUY.

People like to say the stock market is forward looking, but when you break it down, the stock market is forward looking about 6 months tops. Additionally, it is massively affected by macro events. US and worldwide inflation/recession fears bear heavily on it. This is due to a blend of multiple factors but maybe the most important is that fund managers have a plethora of investments they can move money into, so why stay invested in an even great long term stock if that stock is going to halve in price in the next 6 months? The Economist magazine did an interesting spreadsheet analysis in 2000 looking back 100 years at all large international investment classes (all individual stock markets, currencies, commodities, real estate, gold, etc.) and analyzed what would happen if you were the world's best investor and managed to pick the best type of investment at the beginning of the year and held it for that year for every year, starting with $100 in 1900? Well, it didn't take long before that investor would have owned the world's entire wealth several times over.

The point is that fund managers (and short funds just amplify things) move money constantly trying to find the best investment for the next 6 months. Add in nervous retail investors and you have a prescription for a twitchy stock market.

By the way, TSLA didn't used to be so subject to macro effects. Small growth companies have such a large addressable market relative to their production capacity and sport such a low stock price that their stock can rise even in a bad macro environment. I own a couple of small cap biotech stocks (PSTX, ACLX) that have been on a tear the last 6 months. Back in the day in 2013 to 2015, TSLA used to be more like that in that demand was so strong and the stock price hadn't caught up to that reality, yet. But that isn't where TSLA is now.

Anyways, back to your question. To find a 1 year or, god forbid, 2 year price target, you'd have to have a pretty accurate model of the world macro environment for that time period. Good luck. What the Wall Street analysts do is model the company, and they have all these assumptions like volume, margins, commodity prices, etc. which in the end has to have a lot of macro guesstimates. And then you have to estimate what the market is willing to pay for such a company (basically, what PE ratio the market is willing to pay).

I recently read five Wall Street firm reports and most of them were in my opinion garbage because they simply didn't understand Tesla and the EV market. The one that did mostly get it was Deutsch Bank, and they had a $250 price target one year out which they just reaffirmed after the price cuts. BUT does the Russian war get hotter? What does China do? Do we get a soft landing here in the US? Etc.

Incidentally, I do personally know of a few TMCers who sold some of their TSLA about 2 years ago, pretty much at TSLA ATH. Congrats to you all!
 
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I’ll take Clueless for $1000, Alex.

Toyota’s CEO Akio Toyoda says we need to convert existing cars to EVs and hydrogen — just selling new EVs isn’t enough.
He showed off a demo of two vintage AE86 hatchbacks converted to hydrogen and BEV drivetrains.


This means the banks are prepared. Good sign IMO.
It’s also a way for banks to manage earnings which I believe typically spike during interest rate increases.
 
Happy to see Tesla taking some positive actions to counteract some of the things our economy is going through at the moment. I purchased a LR Model Y and Model 3 in 2022, both of which were selling for thousands more later in the year. Both are cheaper now than when I purchased but I don't really care about that. I was really worried that Tesla was too aggressive with price increases over the last year especially, of course, I'm not privy to manufacturing costs so it may have been necessary but I was sure those increases were going to have some kind of effect on demand, it's simple economics. In hindssite, TSLA might have been better off taking a hit on margins but that's a long term business call and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

When looking at current pricing and taking pricing from 2020 ... it's easy to draw the line to see how the current prices make sense after reducing manufacturing costs and especially ramping up several new factories. I still think Tesla will have some amazing margins and might even surprise the street with how well they will hold up even in the wake of the new pricing structure. Elon's plan has always been to make the cars affordable for the mass public so it should surprise no one that he wants to cut prices whenever possible.

IF Q1 of '23 shows minor impacts to margins ... it's completely game OVER for OEMS. Even with major impact to margins, Tesla will still have margins which are multiples better than any OEM, of course, WS won't really like that very much so I'll hold out for minor impacts to margins.

Watching some of the analysts, like Cramer (yes, could I have picked a more polarizing figure??) say things like this new pricing shows Tesla is facing pressure from competition makes me wonder what planet he lives on?? This pricing pressure has NOTHING to do with competition ... it's more of an issue as to how many people can afford high end prices on vehicles. The real pressure is now on OEM's to try and find a way to enter the EV market without suffering huge losses and frankly, I have no idea how they do that.

Hoping that WS will do the proper analysis and treat TSLA's SP accordingly.

Cheers to the longs.
 
I am hearing all those old arguments come back again. Convert existing cars, battery swapping, hydrogen, e-fuels, wireless charging, electrified roads, solar roofs on cars, 45 sensors etc. All those ideas that sound cute but once you actually analyze the economics, talk with the engineers or have some experience owning a car with a good charging network you quickly realize how little sense those ideas make. Those who fail to understand Tesla are condemned to reimplement Tesla poorly....

Meanwhile Elon keeps making those decisions that later turns out to have been very wise, betting on the right technology, cutting the losses on the wrong technology long before the competition has even implemented their own version of it. Which is why Tesla now can sell their cars so much cheaper than competition yet have good margins.
I remember when the S first came out.
Critics: "What!? No CD player? This isn't luxury at all, how can the S compete, blah blah blah"

Elon: "CD players will be obselene, no one will use them within a couple of years..."