Odd how you count.
I open a business there with two people paid by me and I already have 4 million employees?
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Tesla Unionization
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
I open a business there with two people paid by me and I already have 4 million employees?
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
And what about Corporate greed? As I understand it Marry Barra's actual take-home compensation was $30.1 million in 2019 and $34.1 million in 2022...
Why should she earn that amount? So who's killing GM – the workers or the management?
Both.
And I don’t agree with her compensation plan. I prefer compensation tied strictly to company performance.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
In Sweden a lot of folks are able to do just fine running a business and agreeing to a Collective agreement. You would most likely do just as well.
So you honestly believe that whether or not <300 people are unionized will impact ~4 million already unionized people??!?!?
So, just because everyone else does it, Tesla should? If Tesla was like any other company they wouldn't be using giga castings, nor home brewed software, nor vision for autonomy, etc. Elon is fighting this because he doesn't like bullies, and IF Metall is acting like a bully, trying to FORCE what the minority want on the majority. Most of the Swedish Tesla employees don't WANT to unionize, and Elon is standing up for THEM because the union is ignoring THEM.
Lemming mentality is not a valid reason to unionize. You haven't convinced me you are supporting the union for anything other than "because it's how its normally done". Do you have any other reasons?
Obviously, the majority of Tesla employees disagree with you and think they have a fair and reasonable deal, with no union involved. Are the people of Sweden really that bad that they have to be forced to treat people decently and give them a reasonable employment deal?
It doesn't seem like it, or the union wouldn't be worried about companies deciding to back out of their collective agreements if Tesla showed that it was possible to not have one.
This has been stated before, that some of the terms are incompatible with the way Tesla operates.
Maybe because every other automaker, that are mostly beholden to unions, have showed that they can't make good, and profitable, EVs. And a some of that appears to be at least partially because of union demands.
I don't think Tesla has stated that. They stated that wages and working conditions are better than what the agreement covers. But the agreement likely has way more terms than that. But you seem to just ignore that anytime someone brings it up...
If you could show something Tesla is doing that is unreasonable that the collective agreement would fix I might be able to agree, but you haven't.
We've seen people saying they are leaving the unions because of this. We have seen Swedish people pulling down sympathy action notices posted on Tesla Superchargers. So, it seems the unions are losing public approval... What do you think will happen when they go to get their car repaired after a collision and the shops say no, we won't work on your car? Are they going to blame Tesla, or are they going to blame the union that is preventing their car from getting repaired? (At least until Tesla decides to open non-union collision repair centers.)
Point blank question: Do you really think that the sympathy actions are reasonable? Even if it ends up putting some companies out of business (they have to turn away 70% of their current clients because their employees can no longer work on Tesla vehicles) or results in more than 50 employees being laid off because they can no longer make parts for Tesla vehicles? When in reality that action is not likely to hurt Tesla at all.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
You and I just see this differently. Again:
Metall could have ~12-34 members on strike at Tesla. According to how things work in Sweden those ~12-34 members have a right to ask their union for support so that they can have their working conditions regulated in a Collective agreement. And they obviously did ask their union for that help. And now their union is helping them. And other unions are helping Metall.
Why would ~12-34 mechanics ask for the union's help if there was no reason what so ever?
But as much as I don’t agree with her compensation plan, that doesn’t put much pressure on the org. They can afford that pretty easily. The UAW demands are FAR more expensive and detrimental to the survival of that company.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
So you honestly believe that whether or not <300 people are unionized will impact ~4 million already unionized people??!?!?
We know Tesla had 289 employees in December last year. They probably have ~350 now. And that is before the so called 25K USD car and before Tesla starts selling trucks in Europe. If Tesla doesn't have to sign a Collective agreement then why should anyone else have to? If nobody signs everything would have to be regulated through legislation instead ~70% of workers in Sweden doesn't want that. And the eight political parties in Parliament doesn't want it either.
We don't know that. From what I've seen they were forced to go on strike or be expelled from the union. But yes, some people probably did ask. Most likely because they like the protections a union provides lazy people.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
It's his wife's Model Y. Should she be forced to sell it?
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
So, are you implying that the entire nation of Sweden makes their choices based upon how they feel, rather than how things are?
Does this mean that Sweden does not promote free enterprise and the basic right for individuals and corporations to enter into agreements without making sure everybody not part of the agreement feels okay about every aspect of it?
Does the concept of "Common Law" have no use as a reference point in Sweden? Only the presumption of harm must exist in order to enact a remedy? Swedes have no concept of first proving in fact that there is a problem before acting?
Please, explain this culture to me in simple terms that may justify this presumption of guilt for having been offered, and accepted, a generous salary from an employer.
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Ok all. This was 'fun'. But is it leading anywhere?... Doesn't seem like it. Therefore I'm not super inclined to continue this keyboard fight.
As stated previously. I'm pro-union. Most of you doesn't seem to be. It is what it is. Over and out.
As stated previously. I'm pro-union. Most of you doesn't seem to be. It is what it is. Over and out.
Because they don't have to. (At least not legally.)
No, it wouldn't. At least as long as companies treated people fairly, like Tesla is doing. And if there were a handful of bad companies people wouldn't work for them, and it would put them out of business. Or are you saying that the Swedish people are so bad that they would treat people badly if they aren't forced to be reasonable by either collective agreements or legislation?
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
Yes, maybe that is so. But, in a free society, folks might do just as well running a business without agreeing to such an arrangement.
How do you come to the conclusion that this is a scenario which cannot exist at all?
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
I'm actually a union member, and voted to authorize a strike not too long ago. (We didn't end up needing to strike, but the threat was there.)
But I would never support the bullying tactics that the unions in Sweden are using.
Unions have their place, but I haven't seen any evidence that that place involves Tesla.
But that's just it, NO ONE HAS TO JOIN THE UNION. It is a voluntary choice.
Per the Nordic Co-operation website:
"When you work in Sweden, you may consider joining a Swedish trade union. Membership of a trade union is voluntary."
You are acting like the entire union's existence hinges on whether or not ~300 people at Tesla join it when they already have ~4 million members. That is an incredibly small fraction of the membership of IF Metall, less than 0.001%.
Your stance simply doesn't make sense to me, and none of the reasons you state seem convincing to me. I'm trying to understand your point of view but so far I just can't.
