Tesla Unionization

[Just a Reader]

Care to share your firsthand knowledge on this subject?

I’ll give you mine.

I’ve worked in an industry and for my company for 14 years. Boeing, Spirit Aerosystems, Airbus, Northrup Grumman, NASA, and other major aerospace manufacturers are our direct customers.

I’ve taught classes to employees at the Boeing facilities in Everett, WA and Charleston, VA.

I’ve worked on the factory floor with employees at Spirit Aerosystems in Kinston, SC and Tulsa, OK.

Designed, personally installed, and tested systems for the A350 at the Airbus factory outside Chester, UK.

Unions absolutely without a doubt are a contributing factor toward increased cost and lowered productivity.

At one facility, there was a mandatory 10 minute smoke break every hour. Yes. Every hour, 50 minutes after the hour, I was forced to stop teaching and wait ten minutes as a horn blew, all factory workers walked to the nearest door, and went outside. Puff puff, then horn again and back to work on the hour. Right there, a union policy encouraging lung cancer for its members.

While working a manufacturing issue, I once sat at a station on the floor waiting 30+ minutes for a union-authorized forklift operator to move something out of our way. There were several workers there trained to operate a forklift and it would have taken us 2 minutes to do ourselves. But only certain union members could drive forklifts, so we had to wait. It wasn’t an issue of worker health or safety that wasted that time. It was the union ensuring that nobody could take that forklift operator’s job, regardless of the expense or lost production time.

How about shipbuilding? I used to work at Northrop Grumman in Newport News, VA where we built nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. Plenty on union BS there too. Want to unbolt one flange from another? Gotta wait for the union pipefitter to operate the socket wrench, even though the mechanical engineer who literally designed the flange is highly qualified in the operation of socket wrenches.

Lots of stories like that. And I lived it. And saw a lot of it.

But I’m sure the New York Times reporter who doesn’t know how the A350 wings are QA inspected, or how we join 747 wings to the fuselage by premeasuring the assemblies and pre-manufacturing the shims via virtual fitup has more accurate, firsthand real-world knowledge on how unions affect things. His next story was probably about condom distribution in third-world countries, of which I’m sure he dispensed information as an informed expert.

Or maybe a guy who just reads over in Germany has a better idea and I should trust the information he read in a paper?

Oh, well, I'm so impressed. Apparently you were the backbone of both the US and the UK's aircraft and shipbuilding industry all on your own. I'm also sure it was the extended ciggy breaks and and overly strict separation of work-duties that broke the back of Boeing's commercial aircraft busines. By no means can it be attributed to poor product and project planning, that saw huge cost and time overruns at the Dreamliner project and that was the cause for the stitched-together 737 Max. It was the ciggy breaks, not huge share buy-backs and inflated compensation packages for the executive suite, like the one that saw a failed executive like Muilenburg walk away with a $58 million package. That would have bought an awful lot of ciggy breaks.
Funny how Boeing was at its peak when its production was run in Washington.

Anyway, the assumption that unions operate the same way in Europe as they do in the UK and in the US is nonsense.

 

[SalisburySam]

Do you have proof that NYT doesn't lie, because they have a history of lying about Tesla: A Most Peculiar Test Drive. What was their response to being caught in a lie? Well rather than firing the lying reporter who got caught in a lie, they promoted him to the editorial board. Their articles ever since 2013 have had a predominantly very negative take on Tesla.

So yes, those of us with a long history of following Tesla believe that the NYT has no integrity whatsoever, especially when it comes to reporting on Tesla.

Isn’t their banner line: “All the news that’s fit to liberalize?”

 

[Todd Burch]

Oh, well, I'm so impressed. Apparently you were the backbone of both the US and the UK's aircraft and shipbuilding industry all on your own. I'm also sure it was the extended ciggy breaks and and overly strict separation of work-duties that broke the back of Boeing's commercial aircraft busines. By no means can it be attributed to poor product and project planning, that saw huge cost and time overruns at the Dreamliner project and that was the cause for the stitched-together 737 Max. It was the ciggy breaks, not huge share buy-backs and inflated compensation packages for the executive suite, like the one that saw a failed executive like Muilenburg walk away with a $58 million package. That would have bought an awful lot of ciggy breaks.
Funny how Boeing was at its peak when its production was run in Washington.

Anyway, the assumption that unions operate the same way in Europe as they do in the UK and in the US is nonsense.

Never said I was the backbone of anything.

Never said engineers at Boeing (for example) didn’t make huge mistakes.

Boeing was never run in Washington.

As usual though, ignore the direct evidence of unions inflating cost and lowering productivity and look for a distraction.

And yes, I have experience in union-run shops in Europe.

You have yet to share your direct experience. We’re all waiting to hear. I suspect you’re just a troll.

 

[Mengy]

Care to share your firsthand knowledge on this subject?

I’ll give you mine.

I’ve worked in an industry and for my company for 14 years. Boeing, Spirit Aerosystems, Airbus, Northrup Grumman, NASA, and other major aerospace manufacturers are our direct customers.

I’ve taught classes to employees at the Boeing facilities in Everett, WA and Charleston, VA.

I’ve worked on the factory floor with employees at Spirit Aerosystems in Kinston, SC and Tulsa, OK.

Designed, personally installed, and tested systems for the A350 at the Airbus factory outside Chester, UK.

Unions absolutely without a doubt are a contributing factor toward increased cost and lowered productivity.

At one facility, there was a mandatory 10 minute smoke break every hour. Yes. Every hour, 50 minutes after the hour, I was forced to stop teaching and wait ten minutes as a horn blew, all factory workers walked to the nearest door, and went outside. Puff puff, then horn again and back to work on the hour. Right there, a union policy encouraging lung cancer for its members.

While working a manufacturing issue, I once sat at a station on the floor waiting 30+ minutes for a union-authorized forklift operator to move something out of our way. There were several workers there trained to operate a forklift and it would have taken us 2 minutes to do ourselves. But only certain union members could drive forklifts, so we had to wait. It wasn’t an issue of worker health or safety that wasted that time. It was the union ensuring that nobody could take that forklift operator’s job, regardless of the expense or lost production time.

How about shipbuilding? I used to work at Northrop Grumman in Newport News, VA where we built nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. Plenty on union BS there too. Want to unbolt one flange from another? Gotta wait for the union pipefitter to operate the socket wrench, even though the mechanical engineer who literally designed the flange is highly qualified in the operation of socket wrenches.

Lots of stories like that. And I lived it. And saw a lot of it.

But I’m sure the New York Times reporter who doesn’t know how the A350 wings are QA inspected, or how we join 747 wings to the fuselage by premeasuring the assemblies and pre-manufacturing the shims via virtual fitup has more accurate, firsthand real-world knowledge on how unions affect things. His next story was probably about condom distribution in third-world countries, of which I’m sure he dispensed information as an informed expert.

Or maybe a guy who just reads over in Germany has a better idea and I should trust the information he read in a paper?

I've had very similar experiences working in the auto and HVAC industry for 25+ years. I've both worked in union plants and worked with union plants, I've seen unions be underhanded first hand, and I have learned to not like modern unions and their tactics / behaviors at all.

Seems to me like most of the people in this thread supporting Tesla have had direct experiences with and being inside of unions in the past. I wonder if the union supporters like @Just a Reader and @SwedishAdvocate have been / are union members?

 

[johnnycnote]

Care to share your firsthand knowledge on this subject?

I’ll give you mine.

I’ve worked in an industry and for my company for 14 years. Boeing, Spirit Aerosystems, Airbus, Northrup Grumman, NASA, and other major aerospace manufacturers are our direct customers.

I’ve taught classes to employees at the Boeing facilities in Everett, WA and Charleston, VA.

I’ve worked on the factory floor with employees at Spirit Aerosystems in Kinston, SC and Tulsa, OK.

Designed, personally installed, and tested systems for the A350 at the Airbus factory outside Chester, UK.

Unions absolutely without a doubt are a contributing factor toward increased cost and lowered productivity.

At one facility, there was a mandatory 10 minute smoke break every hour. Yes. Every hour, 50 minutes after the hour, I was forced to stop teaching and wait ten minutes as a horn blew, all factory workers walked to the nearest door, and went outside. Puff puff, then horn again and back to work on the hour. Right there, a union policy encouraging lung cancer for its members.

While working a manufacturing issue, I once sat at a station on the floor waiting 30+ minutes for a union-authorized forklift operator to move something out of our way. There were several workers there trained to operate a forklift and it would have taken us 2 minutes to do ourselves. But only certain union members could drive forklifts, so we had to wait. It wasn’t an issue of worker health or safety that wasted that time. It was the union ensuring that nobody could take that forklift operator’s job, regardless of the expense or lost production time.

How about shipbuilding? I used to work at Northrop Grumman in Newport News, VA where we built nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. Plenty on union BS there too. Want to unbolt one flange from another? Gotta wait for the union pipefitter to operate the socket wrench, even though the mechanical engineer who literally designed the flange is highly qualified in the operation of socket wrenches.

Lots of stories like that. And I lived it. And saw a lot of it.

But I’m sure the New York Times reporter who doesn’t know how the A350 wings are QA inspected, or how we join 747 wings to the fuselage by premeasuring the assemblies and pre-manufacturing the shims via virtual fitup has more accurate, firsthand real-world knowledge on how unions affect things. His next story was probably about condom distribution in third-world countries, of which I’m sure he dispensed information as an informed expert.

Or maybe a guy who just reads over in Germany has a better idea and I should trust the information he read in a paper?

Well said and makes the point that unions are inherently counterproductive to innovation and have little meaning in the current business environment. The one thumbs down you received was expected, and like unions, meaningless

 

[2daMoon]

Musk is absolutely quiet when it comes to free speech issues in China. Musk is only brave when it's all about kicking down.

He is trying to save the world and humanity from itself. That is his mission. What's your mission?

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you how diplomacy could play a useful role in getting the foot in the door in order to effect significant change over the long run. He has more than one strategy to employ in order to achieve his goals and is flexible enough to study the landscape before making a move. Having already considered many possible responses to that move he has thought through many possible strategies for each course the opponent may take.

As opposed to the more popular method of lashing out before even making the attempt to become informed about what is actually going on.

 

[Just a Reader]

Never said I was the backbone of anything.

Never said engineers at Boeing (for example) didn’t make huge mistakes.

Boeing was never run in Washington.

As usual though, ignore the direct evidence of unions inflating cost and lowering productivity and look for a distraction.

And yes, I have experience in union-run shops in Europe.

You have yet to share your direct experience. We’re all waiting to hear. I suspect you’re just a troll.

Boeing was never run in Washington.

Oh, really, it wasn't? And there I was thinking that from the time it was founded in 1916, in Seattle, Washington, until the time its management scampered off to Chicago, Illinois, at some time in 2001, it was indeed run in Washington, with its main production facilities also being in Everett, Washington.
Funny that, but what does a guy from Germany know about US geography?
I suppose you are a consultant, well known for long lists of their own, supposed achievements and for sucking up to the c-suite, because that's from where they are getting their jobs.
Yes, it's indeed the job of unions to take some pressure off the workforce. That's not the worst thing that can happen in an industry where people should concentrate on working with high precision. It's no surprise that Boeing's quality started to nosedive once they got rid of experienced staff and people who worked in quality control.
Boeing's Wichita division was also sold off to an investor, who then sucked out all the money it could out off the newly formed Spirit AeroSystems.

Anyway, it's no surprise that Musk's ideological acolytes here don't care about working conditions and unions.

 

[2daMoon]

Anyway, it's no surprise that Musk's ideological acolytes here don't care about working conditions and unions.

Please go into more detail about Tesla's working conditions. Tell us how they in any way would benefit from unionization. Provide specific examples of how and where Tesla's treatment of employees is sub-par.

Every time this question has been asked in this thread it goes all crickets. No answer is forthcoming. There has been no evidence of any complaint regarding employees of Tesla in Sweden bringing any concern over pay, safety, or benefits. But, if you have that information, please share it.

Now, let's take it to the next level. How many millionaires have been made from union member ranks by their employer, worldwide?

Compare that to Tesla. Then, consider how many of the rank and file line workers who became millionaires working for Tesla have continued to work at their jobs. That not only demonstrates how the working conditions are superior, it also shows a level of dedication to the employer that I would be surprised to see from any union employee.

But, I'm sure with your breadth of experience you can come up with some actual examples of how, when, and where union participation has created this sort of environment for their member workers to share in their employer's success in such a way that creates a bond of trust between the employee and employer.

 

[Krugerrand]

I've had very similar experiences working in the auto and HVAC industry for 25+ years. I've both worked in union plants and worked with union plants, I've seen unions be underhanded first hand, and I have learned to not like modern unions and their tactics / behaviors at all.

Seems to me like most of the people in this thread supporting Tesla have had direct experiences with and being inside of unions in the past. I wonder if the union supporters like @Just a Reader and @SwedishAdvocate have been / are union members?

@SwedishAdvocate has most certainly been in a Swedish union, but I’d bet my own money he’s never had to sympathy strike with no dog in the fight, watched the company he works for go out of business, and lose his job because of it. He’s also never been a small business owner forced to sympathy strike and watched that business go belly up because of it. Had he had that kind of experience, he’d not be so cavalier about the whole thing.

 

[2daMoon]

@SwedishAdvocate has most certainly been in a Swedish union, but I’d bet my own money he’s never had to sympathy strike with no dog in the fight, watched the company he works for go out of business, and lose his job because of it. He’s also never been a small business owner forced to sympathy strike and watched that business go belly up because of it. Had he had that kind of experience, he’d not be so cavalier about the whole thing.

It is easy to place faith in an ideal when one doesn't take the time nor have the inclination to study it closely enough to realize the potential consequences in reality.

Imagining a utopian outcome is just as satisfying, generates the same amount of Dopamine, and requires no effort to fact check to see if the results were as expected. To the most ardent flag-wavers, how it feels to think about is more important than how it actually is IRL.

This describes most of the bandwagon jumpers-on in so many aspects of human culture. They are sold a promise, but never inspect the product closely enough to determine if it actually provides the value they were told it would.

 

[Krugerrand]

Anyway, it's no surprise that Musk's ideological acolytes here don't care about working conditions and unions.

Given that you’ve taken the time to read, digest, and comprehend all the posts from the Musk’s ideological acolytes here; you know that every single one of them has worked in both union and non-union shops. Every. Single. One.

The Musk’s ideological acolytes have also posted specific firsthand experiences about those union and non-union jobs of which you’ve also read, digested and comprehended.

Therefore your last comment, which I have quoted, was done so from a fearful, angry, and illogical state of mind because it’s obvious to even the slow witted of our species that there’s less than zero truth to it. But if it made you feel better to type it and post it, then I’m entirely okay with your self-healing process.

 

[Krugerrand]

It is easy to place faith in an ideal when one doesn't take the time nor have the inclination to study it closely enough to realize the potential consequences in reality. Imagining a utopian outcome is just as satisfying, generates the same amount of Dopamine, and requires no effort to fact check to see if the results were as expected.

This describes most of the bandwagon jumpers-on in so many aspects of human culture. They are sold a promise, but never inspect the product closely enough to determine if it actually provides the value they were told it would.

It is true of humans that if it doesn’t negatively affect them, then it’s all good or of no concern to them. Now that works both ways even here and on this topic.

I can hear @SwedishAdvocate ’s argument already: There are so rarely strikes in Sweden that it’s not been a problem until Tesla refused to sign a collective agreement. So of course, I’ve never experienced losing my job or business because of forced sympathy striking. If Tesla would just sign, this could all be over, etc., etc.,

Here’s the rub, though, Tesla isn’t going to sign the agreement and in doing so isn’t breaking any laws or rules. Unless Sweden wants to become a dictatorship or the like, change the laws, etc., nobody, not even the union, can make Tesla sign the collective agreement.

Therefore, as a direct result of the union’s insistence that Tesla (specifically, because we know there are other companies in Sweden also without collective agreements but they aren’t ‘Tesla’) sign, innocent Swedish people will lose their jobs and Swedish businesses will close their doors.

So, while the entire system appeared to have worked for the good of all, clearly it’s deeply flawed if just a single innocent person loses their job or one business has to close its doors.

It therefore behooves people like @SwedishAdvocate who unequivocally support Swedish labor unions in particular IF Metall, the union that started this fiasco, and those that have put their hats in the ring with IF, to slow their roll, give their heads a shake, and realize nothing good for their fellow man will come of this. A division has started between workers and forcibly causing others to lose their jobs will only divide further.

In theory, sympathy striking seems like it should work - everyone stand up together for a common cause.

In practice, humans will kill for freedom. Being forced to strike, that isn’t freedom. The union isn’t about freedom, it’s about control, and controlling members, and now controlling businesses - even businesses that have done nothing wrong or unlawful.

But you know what is freedom? What Tesla has done from the start: support the union and go on strike if you want or don’t support the union and come to work as usual. It’s up to you.

 

[bkp_duke]

IF Metall is bragging in media it has 10 billion kronor (about 860M €) strike budget..

IF Metall har 10 miljarder att strejka för

IF Metall fortsätter strejken mot Tesla - med en strejkkassa på mer än 10 miljarder i ryggen. Den ska klara en lång konflikt med många strejkande.

www.dn.se

Well. I thought this deservers a meme.

View attachment 996700

Honestly, if I were in a union and heard leadership they had about 1B USD in the bank, I would be pissed off. To me, that's just too much of a "reserve fund".

IF Metall sounds more like a business . . . one who's primary "product" is extortion.

 

[Krugerrand]

Honestly, if I were in a union and heard leadership they had about 1B USD in the bank, I would be pissed off. To me, that's just too much of a "reserve fund".

IF Metall sounds more like a business . . . one who's primary "product" is extortion.

Right!? Just exactly what are they doing with all that money? If there are few strikes in Sweden, why the war chest of member’s money? Have they reduced member’s fees? Have they given money back to members? Have they implemented some sort of education program or something else that helps the members?

Has anyone found out what the top guns at IF Metall take home yearly for basically pushing paper around?

 

[bpjod]

Musk is absolutely quiet when it comes to free speech issues in China. Musk is only brave when it's all about kicking down.

I say someone who thinks bullying Musk is a way to get what they want from him is misguided, you respond with Musk has failed to solve China's free speech issues?!

WTF!?!?!?!?
Clearly someone is not discussing this topic in good faith.

 

[2daMoon]

I say someone who thinks bullying Musk is a way to get what they want from him is misguided, you respond with Musk has failed to solve China's free speech issues?!

WTF!?!?!?!?
Clearly someone is not discussing this topic in good faith.

People like you just don't play fair.

The rules of the union game dictate the necessity to make false, conflicting, and off topic (unrelated and meaningless) statements in order to control the narrative and keep those watching emotionally engaged.

Everyone knows that being emotionally engaged in a narrative will prevent most folks from looking at the matter from a rational and logical perspective.

When that happens it is game over for the manipulative dialogue necessary to win in the court of popular opinion governed by the rules of short-attention-span theater.

What you are doing is cheating and it won't be tolerated in the mainstream media.

Stop it! Stop it now! Or else...

/S

 

[2daMoon]

I particularly like how @Just a Reader (and others), when pressed to defend their statements, respond with a disagree rather than offering substance to enrich the discussion.

Thus, supporting the "rules of the union game" post I made above. For which they have also awarded a disagree, again, without offering any explanation for what exactly it is they have found disagreeable to their delicate sensibilities.

This is akin to covering one's ears and shouting "nah nah nah nah nah" so a person won't have to hear anything factual that might threaten the fragile narrative echoing within their cranium.

​

disagree in 5...4...3...2...1

 

[Just a Reader]

Honestly, if I were in a union and heard leadership they had about 1B USD in the bank, I would be pissed off. To me, that's just too much of a "reserve fund".

IF Metall sounds more like a business . . . one who's primary "product" is extortion.

Sure, really, how does a union dare to have a war chest that enables them to stand up to the employers? Better for the employers to have another billion.
Obviously there is a culture gap here.
From a European perspective working conditions in the US are crap. Vacation time, sick days, health insurance, employment safety, maternity leave, are all completely substandard by the standards of most industrial countries.
The wealth disparity in the US is obscene, but this is all supposedly compensated by a tiny number of employees who strike gold because they have received shares at the right time (that doesn't apply to the Swedish employees anyway). Whatever, you may fo in the US whatever you like, just don't try to export that culture to Europe.
Finally, just stop trying to sell "pedo guy" bully and chum of China's internet censor Musk as some kind of benefactor of humanity.

 

[Just a Reader]

I particularly like how @Just a Reader (and others), when pressed to defend their statements, respond with a disagree rather than offering substance to enrich the discussion.

Thus, supporting the "rules of the union game" post I made above. For which they have also awarded a disagree, again, without offering any explanation for what exactly it is they have found disagreeable to their delicate sensibilities.

This is akin to covering one's ears and shouting "nah nah nah nah nah" so a person won't have to hear anything factual that might threaten the fragile narrative echoing within their cranium.

​

disagree in 5...4...3...2...1

Enrich the discussion? Why do you suppose you have earned an agreement for your nonsense?

 

[2daMoon]

Sure, really, how does a union dare to have a war chest that enables them to stand up to the employers? Better for the employers to have another billion.
Obviously there is a culture gap here.
From a European perspective working conditions in the US are crap. Vacation time, sick days, health insurance, employment safety, maternity leave, are all completely substandard by the standards of most industrial countries.
The wealth disparity in the US is obscene, but this is all supposedly compensated by a tiny number of employees who strike gold because they have received shares at the right time (that doesn't apply to the Swedish employees anyway). Whatever, you may fo in the US whatever you like, just don't try to export that culture to Europe.
Finally, just stop trying to sell "pedo guy" bully and chum of China's internet censor Musk as some kind of benefactor of humanity.

So, the effects of one unique employer, Tesla, that is making leaps and bounds by improving employee/workplace issues up to and beyond the union standards, without having union involvement, should be tossed into the same bucket as all the employers who have done so poorly over history in this regard?

Nice try. Would you like to play again?

Nobody is exporting culture to Europe. Tesla is abiding by the local law and has been avoiding escalating matters. IF Metal is attacking them because they won't sign an agreement to do what they have already accomplished in the workplace without signing an agreement.

Neither you, nor "IF Metall Advocate" have been willing to answer simple questions about this.

Instead, you resort to ad hominem responses hoping to draw attention away from how you have been unable to support the union's actions by providing factual dialogue directly pertinent to the discussion.

Would you like a do-over?