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⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Leasing?
Obviously, It's best not to care about the appearance of the paint. I wish I didn't, but I do get pleasure looking at this car. It's beautiful, but this is one of the few cars that I've driven, that drives even better than it looks.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
It's not quite that simple. Many states have also adopted the low VOC rules modeled after California:
"Some of the states banded together in groups to improve their air quality. The largest association of states, the Ozone Transport Commission (OTC), includes Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Virginia. In the midwest, the Lake Michigan Air Directors Consortium (LADCO) includes Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio. The goal of both these affiliations is to improve the local air quality by reducing VOCs and other air pollutants.
To accomplish that, they have mostly agreed to adopt the comprehensive rules created by the South Coast Air Quality Management District (SCAQMD) in Southern California. The 17 million people who live there have created some of the worst smog in the country. Both the SCAQMD and the California Air Resources Board’s (CARB) rules are much more restrictive than the EPA’s national rule. "
Interesting, reading the trade publications about low VOC paints there is a lot of discussion about the pros and cons mostly about ease of application, equipment and cost but no mention of "soft paint" so I'm thinking that the "soft paint" syndrome may be confined to TMC.
Refinish: The Green Scene – Low-VOC Market
Waterborne/Low-VOC: Where Are We Today?
PPG: Environmental, productivity gains to spur greater waterborne paint adoption
Jimmy 1
Member
I concur, this is real. Although racers are loving it because the paint is lighter. Every pound does make a difference.
I have a 2006 Tacoma built in the Nummi plant. It's clear coat is completely shot (bubbled, peeling, etc) and we are planning a full repaint at some point.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
My Land Rover had the same problem. (Painted in the UK) Repainted it.
I have seen a lot of older cars with flaky clear coats. I think this is a universal problem.
jelloslug
Active Member
My wife's Prius that was built in Japan had the clear coat fail on the spoiler. It's not just a Nummi problem.
Late model black GMC/Chevy pickups have the softest clear coat we've ever dealt with; I love to work on Tesla paint far more than GM or Subaru due to this factor alone.
As far as comparing how soft Tesla paint is compared to the rest of the industry my opinion is they're middle of the road, and not too bad to handle even when doing full body wet-sanding paint corrections. Of course the hardness that a ceramic coating offers is going to make life much easier for the client in the long run especially for the darker colors.
In my opinion, a much more important factor to you guys is noting the much higher occurrence of paint flaws/defects that Teslas have compared to other manufacturers. Almost every single Tesla we work on has a paint defect that the factory has attempted to correct but they never seem to finish the job properly. Most owners never notice or even care because the damage is small, but to the connoisseur... hoooooo boy that damage must be corrected pronto!
Here is an example of the Tesla factory getting too aggressive with their polishing.
As far as comparing how soft Tesla paint is compared to the rest of the industry my opinion is they're middle of the road, and not too bad to handle even when doing full body wet-sanding paint corrections. Of course the hardness that a ceramic coating offers is going to make life much easier for the client in the long run especially for the darker colors.
In my opinion, a much more important factor to you guys is noting the much higher occurrence of paint flaws/defects that Teslas have compared to other manufacturers. Almost every single Tesla we work on has a paint defect that the factory has attempted to correct but they never seem to finish the job properly. Most owners never notice or even care because the damage is small, but to the connoisseur... hoooooo boy that damage must be corrected pronto!
Here is an example of the Tesla factory getting too aggressive with their polishing.
Jean-Claude
Former Vendor
This is a reality of modern automotive paint finishes:
Some are very prone to marring(super fine scratches), deeper scratches, chemical etching(from bug guts/bird droppings/chemicals), pitting/rash and stone chips. Some are not near as prone to the same types of defects.
Some paints even fight paint correction specialists when correcting by marring when a high quality/expensive towel is used to wipe away polish residue or using an otherwise fine polish on a finishing pad. This can sometimes give an experienced expert fits until the magic formula is discovered for not harming the overly-delicate finish.
Some paints actually behave this way straight from the factory. Industry professionals have assigned the term soft paint to the describe this behavior.
There is also what some call "hard clear/paint". This would be paint that is very difficult to correct due to how aggressive a paint correction specialist must get to correct defects that they otherwise would believe to be relatively easy to address or would take far less time to correct. Some paints over time have been known for being a "hard clear" that could prove to be difficult to correct.
As a whole, the exact science as to why some act one way or the other is not something I can explain as I do not completely understand the "why" myself. No one can speak for a certain on it because the manufacturers of the cars, producers of the paints used, marketing people and the engineers simply would never say that when using this new thing we use there are negative side effects that may create a big headache for you or an additional cost to own and keep beautiful.
But these widely acknowledged terms and descriptions are founded upon literally hundreds of thousands of hours of experience from people who do this for a living, as well as weekend warriors and hobbyists from all over the world...or maybe a million+ hours -a source on actual numbers is not possible for obvious reasons. But just look at how many do this...have been for years....and multiply by lands on the earth to some measure.
Now, specifically on to Tesla's....
I do not know if it's because of CA's (what appears to be) ban on VOC (volatile organic compounds -stuff that is unhealthy for a human to breath and stuff that's bad for the environment but arguably assists with making paint more durable) or if it's something else. But Tesla's paint appears to be more prone to impacts and surface defects than most new car paints are. This is not unique to what I have personally seen on used Tesla's that opted for no additional protection. If you speak with an industry expert that has worked on a lot of them, they will likely give you the same feedback.
To be clear(no pun intended), I don't act like I know why every type of paint acts the way it does. But I can assess if a manufacturer's paint has a tendency to act a certain way. I do not need PPG to announce that their VOC-free finishes are just as good or better than something else....as if they would brag on their new paint would be a step backwards in anyway.
But Tesla isn't alone on the modern paint finish debacle. More and more car brands are arriving with paint that is not aging as well as older finishes did. I don't see this as a matter that Tesla must answer for. It's a matter of life that money will drive the majority of corporate decisions, government regulations may or may not help an end consumer, the world in some ways are more sensitive to the environment and that can affect a consumer, and finally, we may not have the answers to all questions about paint finishes but we can think critically about what we observe in the real world and our actions can be dictated by what we know to be true.
Hate to be a pessimist about it. But paint finishes are not going to get better over time and Tesla isn't to be picked on over this topic. Even traditional luxury car brands are leaving with terrible paint finishes and among my peers, we all know this to be common now. It's been accepted as a reality.
Some are very prone to marring(super fine scratches), deeper scratches, chemical etching(from bug guts/bird droppings/chemicals), pitting/rash and stone chips. Some are not near as prone to the same types of defects.
Some paints even fight paint correction specialists when correcting by marring when a high quality/expensive towel is used to wipe away polish residue or using an otherwise fine polish on a finishing pad. This can sometimes give an experienced expert fits until the magic formula is discovered for not harming the overly-delicate finish.
Some paints actually behave this way straight from the factory. Industry professionals have assigned the term soft paint to the describe this behavior.
There is also what some call "hard clear/paint". This would be paint that is very difficult to correct due to how aggressive a paint correction specialist must get to correct defects that they otherwise would believe to be relatively easy to address or would take far less time to correct. Some paints over time have been known for being a "hard clear" that could prove to be difficult to correct.
As a whole, the exact science as to why some act one way or the other is not something I can explain as I do not completely understand the "why" myself. No one can speak for a certain on it because the manufacturers of the cars, producers of the paints used, marketing people and the engineers simply would never say that when using this new thing we use there are negative side effects that may create a big headache for you or an additional cost to own and keep beautiful.
But these widely acknowledged terms and descriptions are founded upon literally hundreds of thousands of hours of experience from people who do this for a living, as well as weekend warriors and hobbyists from all over the world...or maybe a million+ hours -a source on actual numbers is not possible for obvious reasons. But just look at how many do this...have been for years....and multiply by lands on the earth to some measure.
Now, specifically on to Tesla's....
I do not know if it's because of CA's (what appears to be) ban on VOC (volatile organic compounds -stuff that is unhealthy for a human to breath and stuff that's bad for the environment but arguably assists with making paint more durable) or if it's something else. But Tesla's paint appears to be more prone to impacts and surface defects than most new car paints are. This is not unique to what I have personally seen on used Tesla's that opted for no additional protection. If you speak with an industry expert that has worked on a lot of them, they will likely give you the same feedback.
To be clear(no pun intended), I don't act like I know why every type of paint acts the way it does. But I can assess if a manufacturer's paint has a tendency to act a certain way. I do not need PPG to announce that their VOC-free finishes are just as good or better than something else....as if they would brag on their new paint would be a step backwards in anyway.
But Tesla isn't alone on the modern paint finish debacle. More and more car brands are arriving with paint that is not aging as well as older finishes did. I don't see this as a matter that Tesla must answer for. It's a matter of life that money will drive the majority of corporate decisions, government regulations may or may not help an end consumer, the world in some ways are more sensitive to the environment and that can affect a consumer, and finally, we may not have the answers to all questions about paint finishes but we can think critically about what we observe in the real world and our actions can be dictated by what we know to be true.
Hate to be a pessimist about it. But paint finishes are not going to get better over time and Tesla isn't to be picked on over this topic. Even traditional luxury car brands are leaving with terrible paint finishes and among my peers, we all know this to be common now. It's been accepted as a reality.
mal_tsla
Member
Oh, the car came with swirls and also hard water etching. I spent 16 hours machine polishing to get back to a clear surface.
Only a high dollar detailer is going to put that much effort into paint correction on a car that's not their own. Dealership, service center, or shop detailers need not apply.
Only a high dollar detailer is going to put that much effort into paint correction on a car that's not their own. Dealership, service center, or shop detailers need not apply.
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
mal_tsla
Member
Autopia Forum - Auto Detailing & Car Care Discussion Forum
This was years ago but in case it helps, I used:
Zaino ClayBar
Porter Cable random orbital
LC Orange cutting pad with Menzerna Intensive Polish (multiple passes if necessary)
LC White finishing pad with Menzera Final Polish II
Lots of florescent lights for inspecting between passes and 50/50 alcohol/water wipe between passes.
Once the paint looked flawless I applied Zaino Z5 Pro (a polymer sealant).
To keep from putting the swirls back:
Wash with two buckets, one clean soapy water the other for rinsing. Use plush microfiber mitts and drying towels. If anything ever touches the floor, keep it off the car until you wash it.
And Most importantly: "no wash" post it note on steering wheel every time it goes in for service!
Its a lot of work but it can look amazing. Now we have a leased black car I feel less passionate but every now and then it's fun to clean it up.
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Complete and utter FICTION!
This myth was started and promoted by detailers who wanted to sell owners on XPel and other wraps. The Model S paint is as good as any other manufacturer. Don't believe those who have a vested financial interest in the promotion of this urban legend. It's complete nonsense.
This myth was started and promoted by detailers who wanted to sell owners on XPel and other wraps. The Model S paint is as good as any other manufacturer. Don't believe those who have a vested financial interest in the promotion of this urban legend. It's complete nonsense.
Jean-Claude
Former Vendor
Soft and hard paint is a concept that was spoken of in industry circles, among professionals where they were seeking solutions to correcting and maintaining those finicky finishes long before PPF was a topic of discussion.
It was likely started by detailers. But it had nothing to do with paint protection film nor any type of wrap. PPF has not had real traction but since about 2012-2013. Before then, PPF had very little availability in most markets when compared to now. Soft/hard paint is a discussion that is way older than the circumstances you are posing AR.
To say one should not trust the ones who get to experience a large number of real world examples of automotive finishes per year under many circumstances because of their financial gain would be similar to saying that a realtor can't be trusted because ultimately they all get paid on commission and they would do whatever it took to make a buck. While there are no doubt some in each group that would fit that description, one would be missing out on valuable expertise to lump all into that critical viewpoint.
Yesterday I talked 2 different people out of spending more than $1,000 on their services because they were heading down a path of thinking that spending more is always better. In their cases, more was not better and they needed a bit of guidance. One gentleman was asking for perfection on a car that was about to be sold back to a dealership. I told him that he should spend no more than $395 or his ROI was completely shot considering the value of the car.
The other client was talked out of installing PPF over worn surfaces that just did not present a proper value given the naturally high cost of PPF.
It is possible to be an expert in the topic of paint care and also be honest and look out for their client's best interest. I know many that fit that description and I know many that don't. Neither all are honest nor all dishonest....like every trade, title or position held by a person.
It was likely started by detailers. But it had nothing to do with paint protection film nor any type of wrap. PPF has not had real traction but since about 2012-2013. Before then, PPF had very little availability in most markets when compared to now. Soft/hard paint is a discussion that is way older than the circumstances you are posing AR.
To say one should not trust the ones who get to experience a large number of real world examples of automotive finishes per year under many circumstances because of their financial gain would be similar to saying that a realtor can't be trusted because ultimately they all get paid on commission and they would do whatever it took to make a buck. While there are no doubt some in each group that would fit that description, one would be missing out on valuable expertise to lump all into that critical viewpoint.
Yesterday I talked 2 different people out of spending more than $1,000 on their services because they were heading down a path of thinking that spending more is always better. In their cases, more was not better and they needed a bit of guidance. One gentleman was asking for perfection on a car that was about to be sold back to a dealership. I told him that he should spend no more than $395 or his ROI was completely shot considering the value of the car.
The other client was talked out of installing PPF over worn surfaces that just did not present a proper value given the naturally high cost of PPF.
It is possible to be an expert in the topic of paint care and also be honest and look out for their client's best interest. I know many that fit that description and I know many that don't. Neither all are honest nor all dishonest....like every trade, title or position held by a person.
BluestarE3
Active Member
I have no idea whether or not this is true (about the paint), but as a general observation, Tesla sales people often get their information from this and other on-line sites (rather than through official channels), so they just parrot what they've read, just like many of us.
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