The M3 terrifies BMW

[S'toon]

I would rather see TM3 reservation holders who can't wait any longer buy a 330e than an ICE. At least they will be more inclined to buy a full BEV on their next purchase after that. We know that plug-in hybrid owners typically move to full BEVs on their next car because they now understand benefits of electric drive and realize that even the small range is usually enough for most commutes. They also learn that 200+ miles is typically way more than enough.

I'd rather they drive a decent PHEV. Not a PHEV which will switch to gas on a trip across town in my medium sized city. Get a Volt. Heck, a Ford Fusion Energi would be better. 14 miles is pathetic.

 

[ohmman]

mod note: Three posts moved to snippiness for troll-calling (including quoted responses). Address the arguments, or ignore them if you find it more effective.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

By the way, interestingly the D option seems to be almost a given for customers in Germany. According to the KBA statistic, the majority of Teslas registered in 2016 were of the D variant (all 25 Model X this year so far, and 781 out of 838 Model S total, 80 out of 80 in July)

While I don't doubt that's true (there's snow in Germany and AWD is great in general), I wonder how much smaller that non-D share is than it could be, because Tesla has been really positioning the D as the only thing making sense for the past two years and giving it the most of the line-up. I mean, the non-D was even retired for a while entirely and has really been on the backburner until the recent push for lower cost in face of waning demand/strenghtening dollar...

There is no non-D Model X at all - and on the Model S side still only 60/75 are available as non-D. And it isn't that long ago when Tesla was pushing 70D as a low-end option and the only non-D was a weird 85. While 70 non-D has become since (and 75 now), only now really a significantly cheaper S60 is (again) available to create a entry price-point... that might change the odds a little for those looking to enter as low as possible?

 

[asus389]

While I don't doubt that's true (there's snow in Germany and AWD is great in general), I wonder how much smaller that non-D share is than it could be, because Tesla has been really positioning the D as the only thing making sense for the past two years and giving it the most of the line-up. I mean, the non-D was even retired for a while entirely and has really been on the backburner until the recent push for lower cost in face of waning demand/strenghtening dollar...

There is no non-D Model X at all - and on the Model S side still only 60/75 are available as non-D. And it isn't that long ago when Tesla was pushing 70D as a low-end option and the only non-D was a weird 85. While 70 non-D has become since (and 75 now), only now really a significantly cheaper S60 is (again) available to create a entry price-point... that might change the odds a little for those looking to enter as low as possible?

Tesla seems to be pushing the AWD models because unlike in ICE cars they increase the range (albeit nominally). And that seems to be people's biggest concern when purchasing EVs these days. The side benefit for Tesla is it opens them up to a market of people who otherwise wouldn't consider their cars because of concerns (valid or not) about RWD and snow. AWD also puts power down a lot better in a car with as much torque and horsepower as the Tesla has.

Basically a generation of American buyers has been trained by the likes of BMW and MB that traditionally RWD cars can only be driven in snow with AWD and snow tires be damned. I'm not sure Tesla had much choice but to follow along if they wanted those buyers, regardless of the technical merits. I'm also not sure its the same calculus in Germany/Europe - perhaps members from that area can chime in.

 

[SageBrush]

A generation of American buyers has been trained by the likes of BMW and MB that traditionally RWD cars can only be driven in snow with AWD and snow tires be damned.

I like the idea of AWD and snow tyres.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla seems to be pushing the AWD models because they increase the range (albeit nominally). And that seems to be people's biggest concern when purchasing EVs these days. The side benefit for Tesla is it opens them up to a market of people who otherwise wouldn't consider their cars because of concerns (valid or not) about RWD and snow. AWD also puts power down a lot better in a car with as much torque and horsepower as the Tesla has.

Sure, I have no disagreement over that - Tesla is pushing AWD and has good reason for it.

However, I guess cost issues are pushing them to keeping the low-end open with RWD... it seemed for a while they'd drop RWD altogether (indeed, they did), but now have been expanding it instead.

 

[Red Sage]

Chuckle...20 pages of hysterical rants over the BMW 330e say otherwise. BMW's 330e is for people who want to cut their GHG emissions now by 30-100% vs. three years from now, run on pure EV for 60% of their driving and (so important to some Tesla fans) have a "performance" car that can do red light racing and merge lane mania plus have the status of being expensive as a Tesla.

72 MPGe for the 330e
89 MPGe for Tesla 70D.

The 330e's 14 miles on pure EV would mean, even charging just from home, average person (12.6 mile one way commute) could do their AM commute as an EV cutting their daily emissions by 60%. Work charging and they are 100% EV for 50% of their driving. Likely near 80% of their driving (local market, kids school and sports) in EV mode. Nice work and high tec, high status car (important issues to many Tesla and BMW owners alike).

The only thing "crippled" is the one-dimensional thinking of some Teslarati snobs.

Wait... Since when is 50%, 60%, and 80% all equal? I'd rather walk, ride a bike, or take the bus than spend my dough on a BMW 330e. This isn't snobbery -- it's common damned sense!

 

[asus389]

I like the idea of AWD and snow tyres.

Sure, I do too. But walk into any BMW dealer in the northern states and they will happily lease you an AWD car with all season tires and tell you it will be fine. Very few people want to buy a second set of tires for a car they are renting for 3 years, regardless of how many wheels are driven - even if thats the safe/proper thing to do.

Ironically, every time there is a big snow storm here its mainly AWD cars/SUVs in the ditch with all season tires.

 

[Red Sage]

The "premise" of this thread is "M3 Terrifies BMW".

Just the opposite of course as the BMW notes. The T3 gives BMW a great selling point for a performance plug-in hybrid that would allow someone to have a high priced, high performance status car like a Tesla now and not have the range anxiety issues.

The T3 is a marketing opportunity for BMW. It's exactly what Tesla wants, other car mfg's building electric cars, cutting emissions. More people buy any of BMW's four electric vehicles, the more BMW will make and sell and the fewer emissions.

The publicity around the T3 makes people consider BMW 300e.

As others have already told you, but perhaps you didn't notice, what Tesla Motors wants is for established traditional automobile manufacturers such as BMW to STOP building cars that require exhaust pipes entirely. Not REDUCE their emissions -- but ELIMINATE them. What you state is NOT the actual mission of the company. Rather than a valid alternative, it is more aptly referred to as a stopgap maneuver at best.

 

[Red Sage]

Because, as BMW points out, you can buy it now, get great "performance", get status of expensive purchase and get as low CHG emissions as a T3.

It would be better to get the Ford Fusion Energi or Chevrolet VOLT. Heck, better still to get a Fiat 500e, Ford Focus Electric, or Nissan LEAF.

 

[Red Sage]

You do understand that the MPGe range I quoted for the 330e is only for the battery portion of the drive, right?



You do understand that the MPGe range of 14 miles is greater than average commute of 12.6 miles, right?



You do understand that if you go further and faster in a T3, it gets much worse for the Tesla as you start needing to change plans to accommodate location and availability of charging stations and the time it will require to charge, right?

You do understand that a top 20% income earner could buy a BMW300e now versus waiting two-three years for a T3 and cut their emissions by 80% over the next two-three years, right?

You do understand that cutting GHG emissions is the goal, right?

You do realize that commutes typically go BOTH ways, right? You do realize that even today, people still manage to run out of gas, right? You do realize that you keep switching around your percentages, right? You do understand the goal is elimination of greenhouse gas emissions, right? You do realize that sarcasm only works when you are correct, right?

 

[EaglesPDX]

You do understand that cutting GHG emissions is the goal, right?

For whom ?

Probably 90% of Tesla buyers. Because Tesla is new, very expensive and relatively rare, there are probably 10% of Tesla buyers who do it for status and are actually climate science deniers. Probably 100% of BMW 300e buyers who are choosing pay more so they can drive a "performance" BMW and still cut their GHG to near zero.

It's OK that Tesla derives 10% of sales from high income climate science denier customers buying on pure status and "performance" terms as otherwise those folks would be doing their aggressive driving in something else and doing a lot of polluting.

Even better that BMW is able to provide zero emissions capable plug-in's for people who would never buy a pure EV, even a Tesla. Even better that BMW also provides a nice all EV vehicle that people can buy for 90% of their driving.

Head over to the the BMW forums for an hour and tell me what fraction of posts over the past week mention AGW is some way other than to deny it's existence.

Or on any of the status symbol aggressive driving forums. But you are asking the wrong question and supplying the wrong answer. What are the major mfgs' doing to to fill the demand of those who do want to cut GHG but don't want a pure EV with the charge and range issues?

BMW's 300e is a response that Tesla was founded upon creating. Getting the world's car mfg's to build low emissions vehicles. The fear and loathing that creates in some of the Teslerati , as demonstrated by the hysterical overwrought comments on this thread denouncing the BMW 300e buyers, is totally misplaced vs. Tesla's founding principles.

 

[Red Sage]

On a serious note, how does the 330e fare against the i3?

Not too good, really... Have a look HERE.

 

[Red Sage]

Most hysterics think their fears and subsequent behavior are justified. In this case, a performance car with a 72 MPGe now vs. a performance car with an 89 MPGe later, there's no reason for the hysteria of a buyer choosing one excellent low emissions purchase over another.

The more BMW sells high MPGe vehicles, the better it is for the environment, better for everyone who wants to see more low emissions vehicles on the road. If BMW can sell a bunch of 300e's now, it will be encouraged to design and build more low emissions vehicles. In 2019 when a person can purchase a T3 in a reasonable time (90 days), if BMW is encouraged by 300e sales, the 2019 300e could have an EV range of 35 miles and cover 100% of most people's commute and around town basic driving.

Some Teslerati have hysterical fears over BMW and other mfg's offering plug in vehicles when that is exactly what we want Tesla's success to accomplish. They have taken their eyes off the prize (cutting CHG emissions) for a childish defense of their sandbox at the expense of reducing GHG every way we can as fast as we can.

It would truly suck if the only capable fully electric cars on the market were BMWs. Luckily, they don't make any. And they aren't going to do so for many, many years. So, no... I don't harbor that particular fear at all.

And seeing as even BMW fans are not quite so stupid as to purchase the 330e in volume, there is no way in [HECK] they are going to sell very many of them. BMW knows that they will move more of their diesel powered cars instead. And BMW is fine with that. But at least people who live in the restricted city center of London or Paris will be able to reach the outskirts of town on electric power before burning gasoline the rest of the way.

 

[EaglesPDX]

It would be better to get the Ford Fusion Energi or Chevrolet VOLT. Heck, better still to get a Fiat 500e, Ford Focus Electric, or Nissan LEAF.

Not if you want the status of a high priced BMW "performance" vehicle to impress the public with your low emissions, high income and aggressive driving. For that you'd want a BMW 300e or BMWi8.

Nice that BMW offers cars for people who want to do their part with GHG while still playing the car status game.

This terrifies some of the Teslarati because, I guess, they fear it will undercut Tesla's full EV sales. That BMW was specifically targeting Tesla buyers over the 2-3 year wait for the T3 is not the threat to Tesla that they fear. At least not at this stage of Tesla's development where Tesla won't even ship 500,000 cars for years.

BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota et al are providing 70% of the demand for great low emissions hybrids, plug-ins and pure EV's. The Teslarti fear and loathing we see here are totally misplaced and unjustified.

 

[Red Sage]

Not if you want the status of a high priced BMW "performance" vehicle to impress the public with your low emissions, high income and aggressive driving. For that you'd want a BMW 300e or BMWi8.

Nice that BMW offers cars for people who want to do their part with GHG while still playing the car status game.

This terrifies some of the Teslarati because, I guess, they fear it will undercut Tesla's full EV sales. That BMW was specifically targeting Tesla buyers over the 2-3 year wait for the T3 is not the threat to Tesla that they fear. At least not at this stage of Tesla's development where Tesla won't even ship 500,000 cars for years.

BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota et al are providing 70% of the demand for great low emissions hybrids, plug-ins and pure EV's. The Teslarti fear and loathing we see here are totally misplaced and unjustified.

Sorry, no... 'Status' does nothing whatsoever to clean up the environment. The BMW 330e accomplishes as much as moving seven miles closer to your job to reduce your commute, and daily BMW ICE emissions.

There will be no undercutting of anything but BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Acura, Jaguar, Infiniti, and Mercedes-Benz sales once the Tesla Model ☰ arrives. And plenty of BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Acura, Jaguar, Infiniti, and Mercedes-Benz fans will be happy to wait until it does.

 

[SageBrush]

BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota et al are providing 70% of the demand for great low emissions hybrids, plug-ins and pure EV's. The Teslarti fear and loathing we see here are totally misplaced and unjustified

I'm probably closest to your side of this pissing match than anybody else active in this thread and I also think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Teslarati are not afraid of the Big, Bad Wolf puppy that is BMW electrification. They do however go out of their way to denigrate the baby step for reasons I don't understand and find annoying. A little grace would be most welcome. And as for the BWW slant that TM3 wannabees should consider a BMW330e today rather than wait --- well, think about it: what *else* are they going to pitch ?!

It is time for everybody to unwind their [deleted]. It is just an advert after all. I do admit though that the thought of an expensive BMW fueling up at a 110v plug to drive home felt like an insider joke. Perhaps the firm that made the advert are seekret Tesla moles ? ;-)

 

[SageBrush]

As others have already told you, but perhaps you didn't notice, what Tesla Motors wants is for established traditional automobile manufacturers such as BMW to STOP building cars that require exhaust pipes entirely. Not REDUCE their emissions -- but ELIMINATE them. What you state is NOT the actual mission of the company. Rather than a valid alternative, it is more aptly referred to as a stopgap maneuver at best.

If true then I find it misguided. LESS pollution has value in proportion to the decrease.

 

[Red Sage]

They do however go out of their way to denigrate the baby step for reasons I don't understand and find annoying. A little grace would be most welcome.

Well, I don't mean to annoy -- YOU -- but I hoped that I had done a good job of explaining my position. I take issue with someone taking baby steps when they know they should be in a race. BMW knows how to get more fully electric range. All they have to do is add more battery pack capacity. They came to that conclusion for the i3, but somehow didn't realize that was the case with the 330e. That saddens me.

As for grace... My standard issue response to such a request is typically, "I'm an American. That means I have no class." But, I feel something more is needed here. From my point of view, if someone doesn't want to be corrected in public, they shouldn't say stupid things... in PUBLIC. This entire advertisement campaign by BMW is pretty friggin' stupid, for a lot of reasons. And the configuration of the BMW 330e is also rather stupid. It would be unfair and disingenuous of me to 'soften the blow' and say, "At least you tried..." Because I know that, honestly...? BMW didn't try at all.

I'm Red Sage, your Friendly Neighborhood Over-the-Top Optimistic Tesla Motors Certified Apologist Fanboy, and I approve this message.

 

[JeffK]

If true then I find it misguided. LESS pollution has value in proportion to the decrease.

I've heard smokers and alcoholics say the same thing...