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The M3 terrifies BMW

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GM's efforts may look like foot dragging, but the Volt offers more practical electrification than any car not made by Tesla, far preferable to 80-mile BEV's or 18 mile PHEV's.
Well said. In my role as your Friendly Neighborhood Over-the-Top Optimistic Tesla Motors Certified Apologist Fanboy, I am not apt to offer such praise in a calm and balanced manner. Instead, I will refer to it as an absolute shame and a complete waste because what you just said should be the very foundation for reasons the Chevrolet VOLT ought to be killing the Toyota Prius in sales. It is a sad day when I would be better equipped to market a GM vehicle than they are themselves. I reserve only Doubt, Angst, and Pessimism for the relatively pitiful efforts of traditional automobile manufacturers to build cars '...of the FUTURE!'

The Volt has been around 2 years longer than Model S, and the Bolt will be here a year before Model 3.
Yeah. And the VOLT will probably be outsold by the Tesla Model S alone for the next three years, just as it was last year in the US. When a car that costs under $45,000 is being outsold by one with an average sale price over $90,000 and an entry level price point of $66,000 there is something wrong.

I believe I read that article months ago, and laughed heartily. If there is a comments section below it, I probably contributed.
 
Your post so full of inaccuracies that I'm not even going to try and correct you. Please do some research and support your arguments with citations and links if you are going to continue down this line.
Are you responding to my post ?

Start here, from fueleconomy.gov
Screen Shot 2016-08-18 at 5.21.12 PM.jpg

Then use this data
NG carbon intensity: 1.2 pounds per kWh

Petrol carbon (WtW): 24 pounds per US gallon
Prius MPG: 50

If you need help with the arithmetic, let me know.
And as for Florida -- LOL
 
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Gen1 Volt was ~ 50% more expensive than Prius, and as for greener, that is one huge YMMV since ICE use was around 37 MPG and EV use was around 360 Wh/mile by EPA testing. Even in California, that works out to the Volt being dirtier than a Prius if the state grid pollution intensities are used.

So you might prefer the Volt, but in terms of environmental benefit per cost, the Volt sucks compared to a Prius.

Your post is laced with assumption and ignorance: try to explain to everyone how a Prius outperforms my Volt which:
1) Is charged by 100% renewables at home.
2) Is charged by solar at work.
3) Never burns a drop of gas on my regular commute and just averaged 52MPG ON A 3000 MILE ROAD TRIP!
4) I'm probably a mid pack volt owner when it comes to efficiency, some of even the first gen owners hardly burn a drop of gas.

I won't be responding, so flame away, but sometimes the idiocy you encounter on the internet really pisses me off.
 
Your post is laced with assumption and ignorance: try to explain to everyone how a Prius outperforms my Volt which:
1) Is charged by 100% renewables at home.
2) Is charged by solar at work.
3) Never burns a drop of gas on my regular commute and just averaged 52MPG ON A 3000 MILE ROAD TRIP!
4) I'm probably a mid pack volt owner when it comes to efficiency, some of even the first gen owners hardly burn a drop of gas.

I won't be responding, so flame away, but sometimes the idiocy you encounter on the internet really pisses me off.
What part of
  • Average Volt fleet miles are 30% petrol
  • Using California NG emissions for electricity generation
  • Comparisons using EPA data
Are you not understanding ?
 
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So now the Model 3 production rate has to be compared to all cars and light trucks being produced yearly rather than their direct competition vehicles? How interesting.
An excellent point. Here is a list of recent unit sales for vehicles I believe will be direct competitors to Tesla Model ☰:

2015 US SALES
47,080_-_ Acura TLX
00,000_-_ Alfa Romeo Giulia
29,013_-_ AUDI A4
94,427_-_ BMW 3-Series
46,082_-_ BMW 4-Series
26,873_-_ Cadillac ATS
43,874_-_ Infiniti Q50
00,000_-_ Jaguar XE
46,430_-_ Lexus IS
86,080_-_ Mercedes-Benz C-Class​

So, a market of 419,859 cars during 2015. Where BMW 3-Series and 4-Series combined for 140,509 units sold in 2015, they are a bit behind that pace this year. The 4-Series sold 46,082 cars in the last seven months of 2015, but sold only 21,462 units during the first seven months of 2016. With only 39,775 units sold through July 2016, the 3-Series is on a pace to have a US total well below 90,000 units for the first time in the past 14 years.

Usually, December is among their best months for sales, allowing for a strong finish, but in 2015 they were unusually low at under 5,300 units. For comparison they sold 19,464 units in December 2014 and in a low year, they sold 8,489 units in December 2011.

Meanwhile, the Mercedes-Benz C-Class has sold 43,609 units so far this year, 12.3% off the 49,721 pace through the first seven months of 2015, though enough to claim the lead in class so far this year.
 
The new Volt has cleaned up the styling relative to its predecessor. On that basis it should do better than the Bolt, along with the more flexible travel capacity. The new Volt has been out since last October but is currently selling at a similar rate ~2,000/month as the first generation sold during its peak years 2012 and 2013. Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard
I do like that the new VOLT is at least holding serve against the Tesla Model S. But really? It should be selling at least six times as fast.

Supposedly first gen Volts were being run in EV mode ~70% of the time. There is no question in my mind that the Volt is a "greener" car than the Prius. Yet in 2015 Volt US sales were 15,000 and Prius US sales were 118,000. I'm not buying that the Prius is a better driving experience either. While GM may not have been marketing the Volt that enthusiastically nationwide, every weekend I see cheap lease deals as low as $139/month offered for the Volt, and that continues with the new version. I attribute most of the sales disparity to the relative legacy reputations of Toyota and GM with the car buying public. Especially the "green car" buying public who think first of Hummers, Suburbans, etc. in association with GM.
All of those are good points. But I stand by my pessimistic viewpoint of traditional automobile manufacturers. General Motors honestly does not believe, despite the fact the Toyota Prius has sold over 100,000 units per year for 11 years, that the American car buying public wants truly fuel efficient or electric vehicles at all. Chevrolet's nationwide network of 'independent franchised dealerships' is perfectly happy to direct anyone and everyone that is interested in the VOLT to take a look at the CRUZE and MALIBU instead. That is why those cars sport in the neighborhood of a 10:1 sales ratio versus the VOLT. And GM is perfectly fine with that result. They believe that having an attractive highly fuel efficient car would take away from their bread and butter sales. Somehow they have not noted that despite the success of the Prius, Corolla and Camry sales have been steadily climbing the whole time too, reaching heights that neither CRUZE nor MALIBU can hope to attain.

Of course Model 3 will be a vastly superior car. But it will also be considerably more expensive than Volt or Bolt for at least one full year of production, and maybe indefinitely (see lease deals above). Model 3 is a direct competitor to BMW 3 series in price and driving dynamics. Both GM products are aimed at a lower price/performance/luxury segment of the car market. There is room for both Model 3 and Volt/Bolt to succeed. Whether that happens may depend upon GM living down its legacy reputation. This can take a long time as evidenced by Cadillac, which has been building cars well reviewed by the automotive press for close to a decade with only a modest uptick in sales so far.
More good points! The problem is that GM doesn't believe there is room for VOLT and BOLT to truly succeed in the same showroom as CRUZE and MALIBU. They want to protect the interests of their actual Customers, the 'independent franchised dealerships', who don't care one whit about technology, fuel economy, global warming, or emissions cutbacks.

GM could eliminate their currently perceived state by making sure their remaining brands aren't placed to compete directly against each other. Chevrolet should probably get the sub-$60,000 market to itself (with the Corvette being an exception, of course). Buick could move up-range to $70,000 to $120,000 price points. Cadillac could once again become 'The Standard of the WORLD!' by occupying the $150,000 and up range. But right now, all three have cars that are priced in the $30,000 to $50,000 range. You have to actually WANT a Buick to resist saving money on a Chevy, or moving up to a Cadillac instead. They won't make these changes, of course, because they have already lost market share overall. Now, each Division is just scrapping for unit sales, and not doing so well in that regard.

I have sympathy with Bob Lutz, who targeted the Prius as the market leader in "green cars" during the 2000's and thus developed a similar priced but better product. But he had it wrong from a marketing standpoint. When gas became cheap, market demand for most hybrid-type cars slumped because the gas cost savings don't pencil out vs. the upfront higher price and mechanical complexity anymore. I'm sure this also explains why BMW's sales of the 330e are miniscule vs. the $5,400 cheaper 330i.
Someone posted this link to a WIRED article that paints everything GM has done the past three-to-six years in the best possible light:
How GM Beat Tesla to the First True Mass-Market Electric Car

I don't quite buy into it, but it is a good read all the same. Even if all you do is laugh through the whole thing.

Elon's marketing strategy of building the market from the top down with a BEV superior to ICE for many reasons other than the environment turned out to be the right call. Tesla demand is growing despite the cheap gas prices.
Exactly. That's why I believe the same strategy would work when going after the full-sized pickup truck market. I disagree with those that think Tesla should make a small, short range, local runabout truck like a Colorado/Ranger/Frontier. I also disagree with anyone who says they should go after the basic, plain vanilla, unadorned F-150. I think they should instead take on the darlings of the industry, the Big Brothers that everyone wants to be like some day, the full-sized Class III, Class IV, and Class V capable haulers that are of the Heavy Duty and Super Duty designation. Those tend to cost the most, and it is a good bet that a very high capacity battery pack could be made ready for that market by 2020 or so. Though it might well require a Gigafactory of its own be built in Arizona or Texas to keep up with demand...
 
Flex-fuel was a good idea in theory. Problem is it is way more expensive to produce than oil/gas but cost has to be lower or no-one would use it. I have filled my Yukon at times with the E85 or 85% ethanol. It burns hotter ,about a 93 octane rating and is good for cleaning the injectors. Long ago I did the math and it had to be at least $1.00 cheaper to be worth it. I lost about 5 MPG on E85. Like I said good idea but did not work and needs to be scrapped.
As others have noted... It was a theory that required people turn a blind eye to numerous glaring issues and stuff. If it truly required much less resources... And my Grandma could have run a 'still in back of the chicken coop with the mash from corn in the backyard garden... And the result from one harvest (we could pull in two or three corn harvests per year) was enough to power all the vehicles on the farm for a year? THAT would have been COOL! But it wasn't about enabling small farms to be independent. It was about making big money for gigantic corporate super farms. And it required way too many resources. And it was far too wasteful of energy. And the resultant 'fuel' wasn't actually all that good -- especially when formulated as an 'additive' to gasoline. Meanwhile? Ethanol still powers Top Fuel dragsters for up to 5 seconds and one quarter mile run at a time.
 
You'll have to write a strongly worded letter to all the financial advice sites. I quoted and linked to one of them above, you can start there. I doubt they'll change their recommendation based on your being spooked by a BMW 330e ad.
I don't mind the conservative guidelines you repeatedly post - in fact, I think they're commendable. I just don't like seeing them used as the yardstick to the Model 3 reality. If people aren't using them today to buy vehicles, why should you assume they're going to do so for the 3? Really, you should be looking at the income level of people who currently buy $35k vehicles, and apply that metric to the Model 3. What you're doing is a clear example of "moving the goalposts."
 
Gen1 Volt was ~ 50% more expensive than Prius, and as for greener, that is one huge YMMV since ICE use was around 37 MPG and EV use was around 360 Wh/mile by EPA testing. Even in California, that works out to the Volt being dirtier than a Prius if the state grid pollution intensities are used.

So you might prefer the Volt, but in terms of environmental benefit per cost, the Volt sucks compared to a Prius.
False.

According to FuelEconomy.gov (EPA), a first generation 2015 Volt emits 200g per mile of CO2 on California grid power while a 2015 Prius emits 213 g.

A second generation 2016 Volt emits 160 g per mile of CO2 on California grid power while a 2016 Prius emits 205 g per mile. A 2016 Prius Eco model would emit 190 g per mile.

These FuelEconomy.gov numbers are calculated using an SAE Utility Factor which estimates the percentage of electricity vs gas usage for a typical Volt driver based on the Volt's battery size and real world driving data.
 
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Now add in the 30% petrol use at 37 mpg.
The estimated gasoline use, based on the battery range, is already added in via the Utility Factor calculation.

For example, use FuelEconomy.gov to calculate the tailpipe plus upstream emissions of a 2016 Volt vs a 2016 Leaf with a 30 kWh battery. The LEAF is 112 MPGe on EV driving while the Volt is 106 MPGe. That shows that the Volt is 5.66% less efficient yet the calculated CO2 emissions are 120g per mile for the LEAF and 160 g per mile for the Volt which is 33% worse. That's because the Volt's utility factor is used to assume that it will burn some gasoline.

Even with this utility factor calculation, the Volt gets a lower CO2 emission estimate than the Prius in California. Of course, actual Volt owners may drive on electric more often than the estimated typical driver and/or they may use 100% renewable electricity rather than the typical California grid. Prius drivers have no real option to buy or make their own 100% renewable gasoline.
 
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You'll have to write a strongly worded letter to all the financial advice sites. I quoted and linked to one of them above, you can start there. I doubt they'll change their recommendation based on your being spooked by a BMW 330e ad.

Well, I looked at those sites, and noticed that you completely misinterpreted their advice. Helpfully, I noted what the 10-20% means in my previous post; are you choosing to ignore your error?
 
Well, I looked at those sites, and noticed that you completely misinterpreted their advice. Helpfully, I noted what the 10-20% means in my previous post; are you choosing to ignore your error?
Yes, he is. And my direct inquiry as to if he followed his own advice. And to answer @SageBrush's two car family question - obviously they should err to the side of 10% on each car, rather than 20%. And of course it's not linear - I've lived in the same home for 9 years. What's the recommended percentage of income for mortgage? For me, when I bought the home my car payment was ~20% of my mortgage payment. And that car was paid off before we bought a new family car - at a payment of twice the older car. And THAT car has been paid off for years now, and we've been payment free until our Model X. This entire time my income has been increasing, my mortgage payment has been decreasing (refinanced twice at a better rate, and PMI gone). And daily living expenses have only increased slightly. Well they would have, except for getting married and having four kids in the interim... Anyhow, my point is that as your income increases over the years into higher and higher brackets, at least one of (mortgage, car, vacation, food, etc.) will stay mostly constant, and you can choose to put the extra income disproportionately into one or two of those categories, without blowing the budget. Trying to do ALL of them would be financially irresponsible.
 
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Yes ... perhaps. I would have to review the source to have an opinion.
However, even Jeff's preferred source puts the Prius and Volt on about even CO2 emissions in the best case of California, which is why I wrote earlier than in terms of environmental bang for the buck, the Volt sucks compared to the Prius.

Anyway, here is contradictory information to the above from the ANL, courtesy of Elgowainy, Wang et al from 2010.
Notice that this is only CD use; the petrol miles are way inferior to a Prius.

Screenshot 2016-08-18 at 9.28.50 PM.png
 
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The estimated gasoline use, based on the battery range, is already added in via the Utility Factor calculation.

For example, use FuelEconomy.gov to calculate the tailpipe plus upstream emissions of a 2016 Volt vs a 2016 Leaf with a 30 kWh battery. The LEAF is 112 MPGe on EV driving while the Volt is 106 MPGe. That shows that the Volt is 5.66% less efficient yet the calculated CO2 emissions are 120g per mile for the LEAF and 160 g per mile for the Volt which is 33% worse. That's because the Volt's utility factor is used to assume that it will burn some gasoline.
Fair enough, so far as it goes.
The problem I have with this calc is that it uses average CA grid emissions rather than marginal emissions. Big difference in conclusions.
 
Yes ... perhaps. I would have to review the source to have an opinion.
However, even Jeff's preferred source puts the Prius and Volt on about even CO2 emissions in the best case of California, which is why I wrote earlier than in terms of environmental bang for the buck, the Volt sucks compared to the Prius.

Anyway, here is contradictory information to the above from the ANL, courtesy of Elgowainy, Wang et al from 2010.
Notice that this is only CD use; the petrol miles are way inferior to a Prius.

View attachment 190689
Good points. And all this confusion and complicated calculations is partly why so many of us on these forums err towards pure BEV. For me it's pretty easy - my car runs off electricity only, and I only charge at home. Where my solar panels cover 100% of my electricity usage (okay, maybe it won't this winter given the additional usage of an EV, but still pretty close). The only argument left is if net metering really counts as a 1:1 in terms of emissions.