The New RAV4 EV

[Bearman]

Thanks for posting any experiences on the rav4-ev, there isn't much from owners out there what i can find. Pictures would be nice too :smile:

 

[TonyWilliams]

I believe that the rav got the 9.6 kw designation due to the recommended EVSE pairing with Leutron which has a maximum output of 9.6 kw. I use a clipper creek ts-70 converted to J1772, and see a full40 amps rate.

It's exactly the same charger, of course, in the Model S and Rav4 (and presumably in the Superchargers... 9 of them !!!).

I have measured up to 42 amps at 240 volts from this charger with an adequately rated EVSE. The charger is rated up to 277 volts, whereby at 40 amps, it would be a 11kW charger!!! It will not pull more than 40-42 amps even if hooked up to a higher amp rated EVSE.

Most public charging stations in the USA/Canada only put out 30 amps

So, here's some typical examples:

----------- Japan --- USA/Canada - The World --- USA/Canada ------ USA/Canada
Amps --- 200 volts --- 208 volts --- 230 volts ------- 240volts ------- 277 volts

16 -------- 3.2kW -------- 3.3kW ------ 3.7kW ---------- 3.8kW -------- 4.4kW
30 ---------6.0kW -------- 6.2kW ------ 6.9 kW --------- 7.2kW -------- 8.3kW
40 -------- 8.0kW -------- 8.3kW ------ 9.2kW ---------- 9.6kW -------- 11kW

Obviously, the charger will output some value below those stated above, at about 85-90%. So, a typical LEAF drawing 16 amps at your house 240 volts will put 3.3kW into the battery, and draw 3.8kW from the wall.

The Rav4 EV will draw 9.6kW from the wall at your house (40 * 240 = 9600), but at 87.5% efficiency, that is 8.4kW into your battery. At a public charger, with typical commercial 208v * 30a = 6240 watts (6.24kW), at the same efficiency will put 5.46kW in the battery.

At 65mph on dry, level, no wind, no HVAC, sea level elevation, windows up, the Rav4 will consume 3.4 miles per kWh, therefore the charging speed is 3.4 * 8.4 = 28.56 miles per hour charging at home and 18.56 miles per hour charging at public spots.

To answer your original question about the 10kW "rating", 250 volts * 40 amps = 10kW.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Thanks Lloyd. So even on an EVSE like the TS-70 that can supply up to 70amps the RAV4 will only pull 40amps which is 9.6kW then, interesting. So would you know if the Model S limit it's draw to 9.6kW also if you were charging it from a 70amp supply?

Yes, if the Model S has only the standard single charger. If you get the optional twin chargers onboard, you can draw upto 20kW with the Model S.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, if the Model S has only the standard single charger. If you get the optional twin chargers onboard, you can draw upto 20kW with the Model S.

And in the context of full understanding, if the HPC is in you house in the USA/Canada on 240 volts, it will be 240 volts * 80 amps = 19.2kW, instead of 20kW.

Then, at 87.5% charger efficiency, that's 16.8kW into the battery.

Obviously, my 87.5% figure is a guess, and a composite of what the charger might do over a broad range of temperatures. At low temperatures, the battery heater must consume power, and if it's hot, the air conditioner would consume power, and if the battery is cold, it will charge significantly slower, etc. Lower amp / volt EVSE's will cause slightly more inefficient charging do to longer times charging the battery, hence longer times for coolant pumps to run, etc.

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Thanks for posting any experiences on the rav4-ev, there isn't much from owners out there what i can find. Pictures would be nice too :smile:

Www.myrav4ev.com/forum

 

[Bearman]

Www.myrav4ev.com/forum

Thanks Tony!

 

[tommolog]

Thanks Tony. I was going to PM you directly and ask(because I knew you'd know!) but I figured it would be better to post in case anyone else was wondering. I knew full well you would chime in and set the record straight

I was just curious why Tesla indicates they have a 10kW charger standard and Toyota refers to it as a 9.6kW onboard charger.

 

[brianman]

It's exactly the same charger, of course, in the Model S and Rav4

Has this been officially confirmed, or is this conjecture?

 

[jerry33]

Has this been officially confirmed, or is this conjecture?

I think it's by comparing the photos. I don't think you'll ever get an official answer from either company.

 

[cwerdna]

Thanks for posting any experiences on the rav4-ev, there isn't much from owners out there what i can find. Pictures would be nice too :smile:

Besides some of the earlier links and Tony's posts, My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Official Toyota RAV4 EV Thread has plenty of chatter.

Maybe start around My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Official Toyota RAV4 EV Thread, which begins w/Tony first renting a Rav4 EV before he bought one.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Has this been officially confirmed, or is this conjecture?

The Tesla 10kW charger on the Rav4:

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Thanks Tony. I was going to PM you directly and ask(because I knew you'd know!) but I figured it would be better to post in case anyone else was wondering. I knew full well you would chime in and set the record straight

I was just curious why Tesla indicates they have a 10kW charger standard and Toyota refers to it as a 9.6kW onboard charger.

Well, the car is only officially sold where there is 208 and 240 volts (California) for public and residential use. So, since the charger is 40 amps so that it can pull 80% continuous on a 50 amp breaker, and they are trying to sell Leviton 40 amp EVSE's, I am guessing all roads lead to 40 * 240 = 9.6kW.

Frankly, ALL these manufacturers spewing usually wrong kW rates would be wise to just list amps. I can see them getting sued over that some day (see my chart a few posts up).

 

[tommolog]

The Tesla 10kW charger on the Rav4:

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Well, the car is only officially sold where there is 208 and 240 volts (California) for public and residential use. So, since the charger is 40 amps so that it can pull 80% continuous on a 50 amp breaker, and they are trying to sell Leviton 40 amp EVSE's, I am guessing all roads lead to 40 * 240 = 9.6kW.

Frankly, ALL these manufacturers spewing usually wrong kW rates would be wise to just list amps. I can see them getting sued over that some day (see my chart a few posts up).

Agreed! The official specs for my ActiveE says it can charge up to 7.2kW's. However I have the technical manual and it shows the onboard charger is made up of two 3.3kW chargers so it can only charge at 6.6kW - at the most. I have never measured it accepting more than 6.5kW's I suppose they use 7.2kW's because it's 240v x 30amps. I wrote the program managers and explained how the listing is wrong and suggested they correct that for the i brand cars because it's simply incorrect.

 

[jcstp]

Toyota's Sheldon Brown backstage at Expand (video)

 

[vfx]

Toyota Rav4 EV review: electrifying - San Francisco Chronicle

 

[cwerdna]

Not sure if these have been posted before, but there are a bunch of interesting ones posted at Toyota ESQ Communications - YouTube by toyotaesqcomm.

TTAC Rav4 EV review/road test video:
2013 Toyota RAV4 EV powered by Tesla Review Road Test - YouTube

TLF car review:
2013 Toyota RAV4 EV 0-60 MPH Technology Demonstration - YouTube - he does an acceleration test at 6:05

 

[TonyWilliams]

The dealerships will be closing very soon in California, so if you haven't bought yet, here's the deal you missed on a 2012 Rav4 EV.

Toyota Dealerships - New & Used Car Deals & Special Offers | BuyAToyota.com


Until April 30, 2013:

Applies to 2012 model year RAV4 EV only. The only differences in 2013 model year is a higher window sticker price, and the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) has a "D" the replaces the "C" in the 8th digit from the right. You will find the VIN through the front window, looking from the outside on the driver's side, at the bottom.

I do not expect that there will be any 2012 model year cars available after April 30, 2013.

0.0% APR for 60 months

PLUS $10,000 SoCal / $9300 NorCal Finance Cash (they call it "subvention", so you still pay sales tax on it in California... your jurisdiction may vary)

Includes Toyota Care, Free maintenance for 2 years.

$2000 - $4000 typical dealers discounts (the dealers are getting 2% "holdback", and the salesperson gets $1000 from Toyota USA and the sales manager get $500... don't worry about hammering them on a good deal)

$7500 federal tax credit purchase ONLY !!! (NOTE: Toyota does not pass this credit to you on a lease - CAVEAT EMPTOR). You get this when you file IRS form 8936 with your federal taxes. No carryovers to the following tax year, so you need to owe the IRS at least $7500 this year.

$2500 California state credit for lease or purchase; Apply here. Obviously, out-of-state buyers don't get this, but instead you will get your state or local government incentives.

Sales tax - on an "in-state" purchase, you pay the applicable tax for your county/city. For an in state lease, you pay a "use tax" on the monthly payment. For out-of-state, you pay nothing to California with a proper Bill of Laden from a shipping company. DO NOT TAKE DELIVERY IN CALIFORNIA unless you want to pay our taxes!!! You will pay applicable taxes in your out-of-state jurisdiction. There's a whole thread devoted to out-of-state purchases and leases.

 

[vfx]

They will probably start the incentives all over again. Did they sell out? Is the 2,500 over three years divided evenly?

 

[TonyWilliams]

They will probably start the incentives all over again. Did they sell out? Is the 2,500 over three years divided evenly?

They did extend the incentives for 2012 model year only until June 3, 2013.

Assuming 36 months is required for 2600 units for CARB, 72 per month need to be sold.

On sale: September 24, 2012

Sep 2012 - 61 ........... 61
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ............ 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ............ 269
Mar 2013 - 133 .......... 402
Apr 2013 - 70 ............ 472

 

[tommolog]

They did extend the incentives for 2012 model year only until June 3, 2013.

Assuming 36 months is required for 2600 units for CARB, 72 per month need to be sold.

On sale: September 24, 2012

Sep 2012 - 61 ........... 61
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ............ 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ............ 269
Mar 2013 - 133 .......... 402
Apr 2013 - 70 ............ 472

Still way behind what they need to sell and once the X is available it will be even harder to sell them. I know the price is in a different league but once there is a real production SUV/Crossover available, especially one with an AWD option then Toyota is going to have to take an even bigger hit to move them.

If they do expand the program to include sales in NJ(a CARB State so Toyota still gets the credits) and have a qualified service center here (even just one dealership in the State will do for me) plus keep the $10k discount then it may just be too good to pass up. Unless Tesla surprises us and offers the 60kW X with AWD for under 70K before the tax credit because I'd have to go for that then. I don't see that happening though, I'm guessing it will probably start at about $75k to $80k.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tom, the standard issues that come up a lot for out-of-state buyers/leasees of the Rav4 EV is service and warranty. Any Plug-In Prius certified store can service the Rav4, and provide warranty support. If there is something serious (like I've had), they are going to fly in Tesla guys. Even at a Rav4 EV dealer, they still sent 3 Tesla guys down for my motor replacement.

The offer has been extended to 2013 model year, but only $9500/$8800 for SoCal/NorCal sales respectively. Honestly, if you want one, at over $20k total off the $51k sticker price, it's almost as cheap as a LEAF with almost double the range. Demonstrated 142 miles at 65mph at 3.4 miles/kWh with 41.8kWh available.

I'd guess about $1000 shipped to your door, just like a Tesla!!! There are already a bunch of Rav4 EV's outside of California. Here's a thread devoted to sales prices of the Rav4 EV.



Toyota Dealerships - New & Used Car Deals & Special Offers | BuyAToyota.com


Until June 3, 2013:

Applies to 2012 model year RAV4 EV only.

No current offer for 2013 model year Rav4 EV on the website, however it is believed now that there is $9,500 SoCal / $8,800 NorCal and 0% available.

The only differences in 2013 model year is a higher window sticker price, and the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) has a "D" that replaces the "C" in the 8th digit from the right. You will find the VIN through the front window, looking from the outside on the driver's side, at the bottom.

I do not expect that there will be many 2012 model year cars available after April 30, 2013.

0.0% APR for 60 months

PLUS $10,000 SoCal / $9,300 NorCal Finance Cash from Toyota (they call it "subvention", so you still pay sales tax on it in California... your jurisdiction may vary) for 2012 model year Rav4 EV.

Includes Toyota Care, Free maintenance for 2 years.

$2000 - $4000 typical dealers discounts (the dealers are getting 2% "holdback", and the salesperson gets $1000 from Toyota USA and the sales manager get $500... don't worry about hammering them on a good deal)

$7500 federal tax credit PURCHASE ONLY !!! (NOTE: Toyota does not pass this credit to you on a lease - CAVEAT EMPTOR). You get this when you file IRS form 8936 with your federal taxes. No carryovers to the following tax year, so you need to owe the IRS at least $7500 this year.

$2500 California state credit for lease or purchase; Apply here. Obviously, out-of-state buyers don't get this, but instead you will get your state or local government incentives.

Sales tax - on an "in-state" purchase, you pay the applicable tax for your county/city. For an in state lease, you pay a "use tax" on the monthly payment. For out-of-state, you pay nothing to California with a proper Bill of Laden from a shipping company. DO NOT TAKE DELIVERY IN CALIFORNIA unless you want to pay our taxes!!! You will pay applicable taxes in your out-of-state jurisdiction. There's a whole thread devoted to out-of-state purchases and leases.

*****************

Typical deal:

Shoreline Blue and Silver; for Blizzard White, add $200

MSRP                       50,870.00
Dealer DISCOUNT            (4,082.00)
Document Charge                80.00
CA Sales Tax                   3,983.78 (out-of-state, do not pay!)
CVR                            18.00
Vehicle License Fees          304.00 (do not pay, get Certificate of Origin to give your DMV)
Registration Fees             100.00 (see above)
Tire Fees                       8.75
Toyota Rebate              (9,300.00) (8,800 to $10,000 until June 3)
Out the Door Price           $41,982.53

Fed Tax Credit              (7,500) (you'll get this when you file form 8936)
CA state rebate            (2,500) (arrives in the mail in a few weeks)

Net price                    $31,982.53
Shipping to you              1,000.00  (varies with out-of-state location and shipper)

TOTAL COST               $32,982.53

 

[JRP3]

If there is something serious (like I've had), they are going to fly in Tesla guys. Even at a Rav4 EV dealer, they still sent 3 Tesla guys down for my motor replacement.

You had a motor go bad in your RAV?