Never claimed that the mirai was light, only speculated that the fuel cell stack + H2 tank would be lighter as a range extender than an ICE range extender.
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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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Never claimed that the mirai was light, only speculated that the fuel cell stack + H2 tank would be lighter as a range extender than an ICE range extender.
remember that H2 tank + HEV battery takes up significantly more volume than a battery pack by itself for the miles supplied
a plugin H2 Fuel Cell vehicle is a shorter range solution than a pure EV.
take a Tesla, substitute some 1865o li ion cells with hypothetical 18650 H2 tanks, the range will be reduced not increased. And the frunk is lost to a Fuel cell stack.
take a Tesla 70D, add a H2 take in the front, where the empty trays are, then the range will increase, but not enough to match a 85D, again the frunk is also lost to a fuel cell stack.
Or take a Toyota Mirai, remove the HEV battery and H2 tanks and replace them with equal volume 18650 cells, and the range would increase. It would be a lot of cells though.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Unfortunately, the fuel cell and H2 tanks aren't all that is required to make the technology function.
Balloons explode without any heat sources nearby when punctured.
Static hydrogen is really safe. A tank at 10,000 PSI travelling at 35 mph though? 70 mph?
Fewer explosions/events than gas cars, sure, but when they happen they'll be much, much more dangerous. Plus there's a heavy desire to keep FCEVs as light as possible--I don't think the proper amount of attention will be put toward the hydrogen tank in trying to slim every weight component down. Static tanks, of course, do not have weight concerns.
What about crumple zones? A hydrogen tank all of a sudden becomes more important to crumple around than a passenger. That in itself seems like it'd make a FCEV less safe to drive in.
green1
Active Member
I suspect that fuel cell vehicles will be relatively safe when new, and during the warranty periods when all the safety checks are done, but wait 15-20 years and imagine some teenager with their first car, a rust bucket of a fuel cell vehicle that hasn't seen maintenance in near a decade. Fuel cells scare me!
I agree.
But this is mostly a matter of cost. Once we have a few major accidents involving 5-20 year old FCVs, we'll get strict rules for annual inspections with pressure testing of the hydrogen system. You might also need to remove the hydrogen driveline to get access to inspect all the critical components. 10-20 year old FCVs will be phased out quite rapidly once you need to pay 1000-2000 USD per year to keep the cars on the road.
green1
Active Member
Where you live, maybe, where I live no vehicle once sold EVER needs any form of inspection to stay on the road. I doubt the law would change just for fuel cell vehicles.
If you don't already have annual/biennial inspections, FCVs is probably the only thing that could force you to change the laws. Poorly maintained FCVs will in all likelihood lead to some spectacular (and I mean *spectacular*) accidents. Maybe like this: Police dash-cam video of Stafford Township, NJ house explosion - YouTube
The entire EU zone has biennial inspections starting at the 4th year of registration, but they're not too extensive. It's like 100 USD each time. An inspection of a FCV will need to be much more extensive.
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MartinAustin
Active Member
2016 Toyota Mirai Review With The LAcarGuy - Video
It's a little hard to watch... the combination of sleazy car dealer PLUS goofy Toyota Mirai... but it does show you more about the car if you're interested.
It's a little hard to watch... the combination of sleazy car dealer PLUS goofy Toyota Mirai... but it does show you more about the car if you're interested.
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I love the part where he compared it to a golf cart as if it was a good thing.
I'm pretty sure the "electric motor" noise he comments on and you hear when he floors it is actually a blower for the fuel cell stack - it doesn't rise with speed and is more buzzy than any motor I've heard (and the Honda Clarity videos have a similar noise.)
Walter
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
I'd hate to be the guy doing the inspections, probably just as likely to go up as you are inspecting it. Tap, shuffle, looks OK, tap, hmm what's that, BOOM!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
CNG tanks are required by US federal law (FMVSS 304, Canadian equivalent CMVSS 301.2) to be inspected every 3 years or 36,000 miles whichever comes first. Hydrogen tanks will probably be similar.
currently USA Hydrogen require hydro-static pressure testing at an approved facility every 5 years. Obviously this is not compatible with consumer ownership of Hydrogen Vehicles.
Toyota managed to get Japan to relax such requirements.
China went the other way and simply banned type 4 CNG and H2 tanks from vehicles do to safety concerns.
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f12/cng_h2_workshop_4_zheng.pdf
so no Mirai for China, they don't pass Chinese safety standards.
green1
Active Member
And if you don't? there zero enforcement of such in Canada. You don't need to prove to anyone that you had it inspected. H2 will be the same likely.
It's sad when China is the country with the strict safety standards in comparison to the US, Europe, and Japan. I guess corporate lobbying doesn't carry the same clout there and they're actually allowed to think of the greater good.renim said:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Enforcement in the US will be by the state DMV (in which they can refuse to renew your vehicle registration if you don't have proof of inspection, similar to smog checks), not sure how Canada does it. Of course some states will be more lax than others.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
DMV doesn't do inspections on normal cars in TN. Maybe they would classify it to require special tags but the only current tags that could handle it would be commercial or government. I guess they'd have to make a new tag for Fool Cell Vehicles.
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