green1
Active Member
I HIGHLY doubt they'll do anything at all with them. I will be positively shocked if there is anything to stop someone driving with one of these bombs without proper inspections.
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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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- Electric Vehicles
Before or after the first couple blow up? If there's no inspections, it'll happen eventually.
One of the reasons that China banned the composite/plastic tanks is that the liners tend to separate and crack if the pressure drops. A few more cycles and they'll fail the liner. Then bad things happen.
For me the risk of explosion seems like one of the least of the issues with Hydrogen.
It's a solvable problem: just make the steel thicker.
They should be able to make Hydrogen tanks safer than gasoline tanks.
They will never be able to make HFCVs more fuel efficient than BEVs, and they currently cannot make an HFCV with a lower carbon footprint than a Prius. That's the problem with HFCVs, not the risk of an explosion.
It's a solvable problem: just make the steel thicker.
They should be able to make Hydrogen tanks safer than gasoline tanks.
They will never be able to make HFCVs more fuel efficient than BEVs, and they currently cannot make an HFCV with a lower carbon footprint than a Prius. That's the problem with HFCVs, not the risk of an explosion.
It's not as simple as just making the metal thicker. You have to be very careful what alloys you use because hydrogen eats metal. Hydrogen embrittlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You forgot that the refueling infrastructure doesn't exist and that building it is orders of magnitude more expensive than a recharging infrastructure.
A Japanese journalist purchased Mirai for test, and reported that the car's range (with only one casual test with 3 people) was approx 350km or 225 miles. It was a return trip. The route he tested includes 10% incline of TOYO Tires Hakone Turnpike toll road on the way going, though he came back to Tokyo eventually. 130km each way, and he saw "less than 80km".
http://www.corism.com/blog/34/2773.html
Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/transl...://www.corism.com/blog/34/2773.html&edit-text=
http://www.corism.com/blog/34/2773.html
Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/transl...://www.corism.com/blog/34/2773.html&edit-text=
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Journalist reports fuel cost as US $.24 per mile. Yikes.
In Japan, a Corolla has a fuel cost of $.14 per mile.
I thought the Japanese government was subsidizing hydrogen to be comparable in cost to gasoline.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
<s>But it's so clean! Did you know all that comes out the tailpipe is plain water? Simply amazing. That must surely explain why this magic fuel is a tad more expensive? </s>
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Thanks for that, I've been pretty suspect of Toyota's claimed range from the beginning.
The only possible benefit is that the waste heat from the fuel cell can heat the cabin. It probably doesn't have to use electricity to do that like an EV does.
Yes, and this will make a noticable impact. But in winter, the air is denser so air resistance is higher (20% higher when going from +30C to -20C), snow and slush increases air/road resistance, studded wheels increase road resistance, when you start driving you will need an electrical heater to get the fuel cell and cabin quickly up to good temperatures, etc.
There are many reasons for losing range in winter, and the heating requirements is just one aspect.
The government "advised" that retail hydrogen should cost around 1000-1100 JPY (8.3-9.2 USD) per kg. That makes the refill of hydrogen cost about the same as the refill of gas for compact cars in Japan, but as you apparently know, Prius and other hybrid cars have much higher efficiency so the FCV fuel economy looks worse...
At 1000JPY per kg, the distributors and manufacturers won't make money at all I think, considering retail LNG or LPG cost here. Better to sell LNG to factories and consumers.
Toyota has said that, in the US, that the cost of the Hydrogen fueling facilities and the hydrogen itself will be cheaper than in Japan. We shall see.
green1
Active Member
Sure it will be, their plan is to get the government to pay for all the infrastructure, and the fuel is made from the oil and gas industry which is much better established in the US than in Japan.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/30/epa-toyota-mirai-67-mpge/
Mirai gets EPA rated at 67 MPGe and 312 mile range.
Less craptastic than I thought.
Mirai gets EPA rated at 67 MPGe and 312 mile range.
Less craptastic than I thought.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
This is where you REALLY get into the 'Lies, damn lies and statistics...'
OK... the only truly scalable, and sustainable source of H2 is electrolysis from solar/wind. In that case an FCV is really just an inefficient BEV with a faster charging time.
The EPA rating for BEVs is 'Wall-2-Wheels' meaning how many kWhs of ELECTRICITY does it take to charge the battery enough to get X miles. EPA rating includes charging inefficiencies.
If we're going to be honest about this then FCV rating should be done the same way; How many kWh of ELECTRICITY does it take to get enough H2 into the tank to get X miles. Since electrolysis is RARELY >60% efficient that's really ~40mpge.. not 67...
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
roblab
Active Member
Plus 1! And the oil and gas industries are highly subsidized in the US. In Japan, they have to ship nat gas in on big boats with really big tanks.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes that was far more decent than I though it would be. I thought it would end up around 60mpge and ~280 miles.
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