Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan

[WannabeOwner]

Toyota is using human waste to power its new electric car

Making Hydrogen from Sewage. So that could be the Big Break then?

Except that "... microorganisms break down the solid waste, creating biogas, about 60% methane and 40% carbon dioxide. Then, workers filter out the CO₂ and add water vapor, which creates hydrogen and more CO₂. They extract the CO₂ again, and voila: pure hydrogen."

Why not just stop at Methane and stick that into the gas pipeline - instead of spending more money scrubbing more CO2 out of the final process? But I'm no Chemist, maybe making Hydrogen via this route is better/more useful than making Methane?

 

[miimura]

They also do this at a water treatment plant in Orange County, California. By turning the bio-methane into hydrogen, they get to claim a higher percentage of renewable hydrogen. California requires 30% of the hydrogen dispensed for FCEVs to be renewable. The plant also burns some of the bio-methane to generate electricity to run the equipment in the plant and reduce their grid electricity usage.

 

[mspohr]

They also do this at a water treatment plant in Orange County, California. By turning the bio-methane into hydrogen, they get to claim a higher percentage of renewable hydrogen. California requires 30% of the hydrogen dispensed for FCEVs to be renewable. The plant also burns some of the bio-methane to generate electricity to run the equipment in the plant and reduce their grid electricity usage.

Another case of misdirected government subsidies. They are subsidizing an inefficient energy storage medium. Much better to just sell or use the methane directly.

 

[ggies07]

Had to laugh at this headline:

Q&A: The promising future of fuel-cell transportation

and looooooooooove how it's sponsored by none other than Toyota.

 

[jelloslug]

I'm actually pretty surprised they managed to lease out 600 plus Mirais so far, with over 300 last month.

What will be really surprising is how they plan on fueling those cars.

 

[Kipernicus]

Why hasn't Toyota given Mirai Nagasu a car?

 

[RubberToe]

Apologies for bumping the Mirai thread back into the top 100 in this sub-forum. I signed up via e-mail about 100 years ago to apply for a fuel cell car. The last couple weeks I'm getting flooded with e-mails from Toyota about great deals on a Mirai. Got a post card today too. They must be having a tough time moving these now, go figure...

RT

 

[mtndrew1]

Apologies for bumping the Mirai thread back into the top 100 in this sub-forum. I signed up via e-mail about 100 years ago to apply for a fuel cell car. The last couple weeks I'm getting flooded with e-mails from Toyota about great deals on a Mirai. Got a post card today too. They must be having a tough time moving these now, go figure...

RT

Same here, tons of Mirai junk mail coming my way these days, both physical paper stuff and emails. Seems that since Toyota moved their staff to Plano there aren’t any more chumps (err...team members) to take highly discounted Mirais off the lot.

 

[nwdiver]

Same here, tons of Mirai junk mail coming my way these days, both physical paper stuff and emails. Seems that since Toyota moved their staff to Plano there aren’t any more chumps (err...team members) to take highly discounted Mirais off the lot.

It's already got an electric motor... wonder how hard a BEV conversion would be

 

[miimura]

It's already got an electric motor... wonder how hard a BEV conversion would be

That depends on whether they can make COPV shaped battery packs. It would also raise the question of whether the leisurely acceleration is due to motor power limits or hybrid battery power + fuel cell stack power limits.

 

[Ed Hart]

Same here, tons of Mirai junk mail coming my way these days, both physical paper stuff and emails. Seems that since Toyota moved their staff to Plano there aren’t any more chumps (err...team members) to take highly discounted Mirais off the lot.

Just had a friend turn in their Mirai and go for a Tesla. Guess who got the referral? This is the shirt I plan to where on my next visit to the mall. I will just sort of "hang around" to see if anyone bites....or if Tesla security sends me away!

 

[mhan00]

Just had a friend turn in their Mirai and go for a Tesla. Guess who got the referral? This is the shirt I plan to where on my next visit to the mall. I will just sort of "hang around" to see if anyone bites....or if Tesla security sends me away!

How did he like driving the Mirai? Was refueling more or less inconvenient than using gas (beyond just location)? Was the performance adequate? Did he ever exceed the 15k (I think) Toyota was including for refueling for 3 year leases, and if so, how much was it to refuel? Hydrogen seems dumb to me for use in cars, so I’d be curious if he saw any advantages I might be missing.

 

[Ed Hart]

How did he like driving the Mirai? Was refueling more or less inconvenient than using gas (beyond just location)? Was the performance adequate? Did he ever exceed the 15k (I think) Toyota was including for refueling for 3 year leases, and if so, how much was it to refuel? Hydrogen seems dumb to me for use in cars, so I’d be curious if he saw any advantages I might be missing.

I cannot say accurately, but....there was comment made that he spent a lot of time driving to get fuel. Not too many months ago, a station opened a bit closer to him, but the die was cast. He has a gigantic solar panel setup on his home roof, so you would think....

 

[nwdiver]

I cannot say accurately, but....there was comment made that he spent a lot of time driving to get fuel. Not too many months ago, a station opened a bit closer to him, but the die was cast. He has a gigantic solar panel setup on his home roof, so you would think....

I always thought the fact the Miraii wasn't a PHEV was the biggest red flag that the top (only?) 3 reasons for its existence was FUD, FUD and FUD. Toyota wanted it to be compelling enough to create uncertainty... just not compelling enough to actually be compelling...

Imagine if you only needed H2 for long trips.... a FCEV has got to be easier to make into a PHEV than ICE...

 

[miimura]

Imagine if you only needed H2 for long trips.... a FCEV has got to be easier to make into a PHEV than ICE...

Certainly, adding a 10kWh to 20kWh battery and a plug would be a huge improvement to the Mirai. However, then it would consume a whole lot less H2. The entrenched interests that want to continue dispensing fuel using the gas station model wouldn't like that.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Certainly, adding a 10kWh to 20kWh battery and a plug would be a huge improvement to the Mirai. However, then it would consume a whole lot less H2. The entrenched interests that want to continue dispensing fuel using the gas station model wouldn't like that.

Yup, H2 is only economical if it's the primary fuel...well economical for everyone but the consumer that is.

 

[hiroshiy]

Renault-Nissan stops investment in fuel cell vehicles
Google Translate
Original Article: 燃料電池車　日産、ダイムラーなどとの商用化凍結 (Japanese)

FCV future is getting darker further.

 

[Saghost]

Certainly, adding a 10kWh to 20kWh battery and a plug would be a huge improvement to the Mirai. However, then it would consume a whole lot less H2. The entrenched interests that want to continue dispensing fuel using the gas station model wouldn't like that.

Yup. Plug in hybrids of all types tend to be gateway drugs for pure EVs, and teach consumers far too much about the realities of EV costs, reliability, and convenience.

I'm fairly certain it's no coincidence that there's only ever been one PHEV fuel cell concept car that I know of, and they didn't even do that one right...

Major expense in a FCEV? The fuel cell, with costs increasing nearly linearly with power output. Major cost in a BEV is the pack, with cost increasing nearly linearly with range, not power output.

That means you could build an i3 REx philosophy fuel cell system for a quarter or less of the cost of a Mirai or Clarity fuel cell system, and pair it with a Volt style battery - slightly more power oriented chemistry/structure than most EVs - and get a car that uses the battery for daily commuting and all the hard acceleration, with a fuel cell that's just big enough to handle the steady state loads of fast freeway driving for a lot less cost than a conventional FCEV.

But they won't do it because they'd teach the FCEV drivers to love EVs and only refuel once in a blue moon, and as far as I can tell the whole purpose of the FCEV movement is to protect the existing car and fuel providers from the EV movement.

 

[Ed Hart]

I always thought the fact the Miraii wasn't a PHEV was the biggest red flag that the top (only?) 3 reasons for its existence was FUD, FUD and FUD. Toyota wanted it to be compelling enough to create uncertainty... just not compelling enough to actually be compelling...

Imagine if you only needed H2 for long trips.... a FCEV has got to be easier to make into a PHEV than ICE...

Boy...have you ever seen how much hardware goes into a FCEV?! Stunning. Here is a photo I took a few years ago at the LA Auto Show. I think the packaging is part of the reason why the Mirai is so tall and seeming to teeter on the highway.

 

[renim]

Renault-Nissan stops investment in fuel cell vehicles
Google Translate
Original Article: 燃料電池車　日産、ダイムラーなどとの商用化凍結 (Japanese)

FCV future is getting darker further.

this is quite major, Nissan alone was in both the EV and H2 camp. the EV side is famous for Nissan going all in on the LEAF.
for hydrogen, Nissan was the technology provider for both Ford and Daimler. Daimler was the big H2 pusher for Europe. Nissan retreating from H2 effectively kills H2 in Europe.

for many years Nissan made it clear that the next LEAF will out-compete the Mirai, the 60kWH LEAF is getting almost at preorder stage for Canadians.