Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

TSLA Investor Discussions

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
As long as humans are greedy, politicians will promote war so that we can take other people's stuff. Water is indeed a scarce resource that we are presently squandering at an alarming rate. Golf courses in Arizona??? Give me a break! Canada has a lot of water, and plenty of very powerful interests here in the U.S. want it. I'm already against that war.

A 100% conversion from stinkers to EVs would still leave us demanding oil for other uses, and is decades away. And does not help Tesla's short-term cash flow.

I'm not an accountant, but the business of Tesla's accounting of the reservation money sounds to me like b.s. from the FUDsters. I'm sure the reservation money is properly accounted for as a liability, and that liability is drawn down as cars are delivered. Since Elon Musk does not strike me as the kind of businessman who would cook the books and lie about the company's financial position, I believe him when he says that Tesla has enough cash to get through early production and into profitability. Of course, the anti-Tesla FUDsters, just like anti-evolution fundamentalists and climate-change denialists, will always manufacture arguments; and the clever ones can manufacture dishonest arguments faster than they can be countered. The FUDsters have an advantage in the debate because they can say whatever they like. Honest people, like the scientists in the evolution and climate-change debates, have to use and document actual facts, which takes longer. Dishonest debaters can be impossible to keep up with.

I'm not worried about Tesla's liquidity. But as I've already said, I don't expect TSLA to move significantly for some time yet.
 
The FUDsters have an advantage in the debate because they can say whatever they like. Honest people, like the scientists in the evolution and climate-change debates, have to use and document actual facts, which takes longer. Dishonest debaters can be impossible to keep up with.

So true! The FUDsters also manage to sway people's opinions by preying on their emotions while suppressing their ability to analyze and think logically. And, sometimes, unfortunately, logic and raw numbers are too much for some folks (I recall an interesting article from the healthcare debate days: BBC News - Why do people vote against their own interests?)

Oh, water wars are a given; it's just that, so far, they've been confined to the developing world.

How about Lithium Wars when EVs are everywhere?! The defense industry might already be exploring how to work Bolivia etc. into the mix...
 
Thanks, NigelM, I look forward to it.

OK here goes; I have a background in large corporate management and leveraged financing but I'm going to keep this is as simple as possible (and apologies to anyone who thinks this is too simplistic)....

These are the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP):

1. Revenue is the top line of your P&L and you subtract your costs until you have a net profit or loss.
2. Any business can easily sustain repeated paper losses so long as cash flow is sufficient to keep paying the bills. Sources of cash flow are many and include loans, deferring payment of expenses, cash from sales of course, and nice people who put down deposits against future purchases.
3. Deposits are not revenue as long as they are fully refundable. The company receiving the deposit hasn't provided any goods or services and has a liability to return the money if requested. However, as an interest free loan it is a nice additional source of cash flow.

Now in Tesla's case:

1. Q1 net loss of $79million (some of which may have been depreciation, taxes etc.), could simplistically be taken as Tesla burning through that much cash. Well, that's also not unusual in a company investing heavily in R&D (ever looked at Bio-Tech stocks?) as well as capital investments and short-term costs resulting from factory preparation.
2. However, Tesla finished the quarter with $387m cash available. So even if nothing changed and they didn't sell any Model S's they could carry on at the same rate for another 15 months or so. However, the R&D costs will decline significantly and the factory prep costs will fade; so even if the rate of Model S sales would be very slow and overheads weren't being amortized Tesla has enough cash to keep the business going for probably a couple of years.
3. Tesla does have a good deposit book and contracts for drive trains and other components as well as other sources of revenue, so suggesting that cash flow might be an issue is plain nonsense. It would be an issue if deposits were being reduced but revenue was not coming in.

The deposit scenario:

1. Tesla has $40k of my money as a deposit on a Model S. I now signed an MVPA for $100k and $10k of my money is now non-refundable. Tesla can take that $10k, book it as revenue and reduce the balance sheet liabilities (note that's important later on!).
2. Tesla delivers my car for $100k (minus the $10 already paid) and I pay them $60k plus the remaining $30k of my deposit. They can book the $90k as revenue and reduce their balance sheet liabilities by a further $30k.
3. Do this enough times and the P&L suddenly starts to look much healthier, losses are reduced. Do it on a ramped up scenario and they'll start to show profits.

Now how about those statements from JP and friends:

JP: The cash goes to the asset side of working capital and is offset by a short-term liability that's a good deal bigger than you assume. At March 31, the refundable reservation payments were $113.3 million. The biggest reason for the high number was that the reservation was $40,000 if you wanted one of the first thousand Signature Editions.
The reservation payments would not have impacted operating losses.

OK, thats fair enough. But then he says:

JP: They will, however, put a crimp into cash when a Signature Edition delivery creates $100,000 in revenue but only $60,000 in cash to pay the cost of building and delivering the car.

That's twisting things pretty ridiculously. Yes, they will book $100k in revenue, but they are receiving an additional $60k in cash flow. JP suggests that Tesla only gets $60k towards the $75k cost of building the car but the reality is that the cost of the car includes fixed and variable overheads and Tesla has already used some of the $40k deposit to cover those costs. In P&L terms they are receiving $100k for the car and not $60k. Does it crimp cash flow? No because they have received an additional $60k! Depending on how Tesla actually accounts for all their overheads and fixed costs (this is where I don't want to get into too much irrelevant detail) they might end up reducing their currently available cash pile of $387m, but it's worth noting that holding too much cash is poor financial management, you really want to use it (invest in future business), pay down debt (give it back to DoE) or give it back to shareholders (dividends or stock re-purchases).

Then JP's sparring partner weighs in:

Poster: Simple math: the first 5000 vehicles they sell only net them $65 million, which isn't even enough to overcome the losses of a single quarter. Wow! That's worse than I thought.

Nonsense. Losses to date were driven by R&D...in other words a substantial amount of one-offs. Here's the note from Tesla's Q1 shareholder letter:

Tesla: Research and development (R&D) expenses were $62.5 million on a non-GAAP basis. This 10% sequential increase in R&D expenses is due to our increasing investments in Model S manufacturing preparedness, process validation, prototype builds and extensive testing at both the car and component levels. Our manufacturing team has grown substantially in this quarter, in order to be well trained and prepared to produce high quality cars. Thus, a substantial portion of our R&D expenses are one-time investments in preparation for Model S production. We have consciously chosen to invest more when needed to reach our safety, quality and performance goals for Model S. This has enabled us to deliver our first customer cars ahead of the announced schedule.

A good point to note is that if Tesla continues such a high rate of R&D costs then they deserve to get beaten up; but you can read for yourself that many of the costs were incurred one-time. The post goes on:

Poster: I've always thought Tesla had a very small chance of making it, but I believed it wasn't as hopeless of a bet as some of the other DOE investments, merely because it was targetting a niche at the start... Now I'm not so sure that's true.
I had thought it ACTUALLY had roughly half of the working capital it claimed, as the other half was actually a debt based on reservation payments... but you're saying that essentially all of its working capital is reservation payments... Wow

Common sense says that if Tesla has $387 in cash at the end of Q1 and $113.3m in reservation deposits it's not actually possible that all of Tesla's working capital comes from reservation holders. Also, if your customers were giving you $100m as in interest-free loan wouldn't you use it as working capital? That's just smart business and Tesla has stated that they use deposits for working capital. That said, in reality it doesn't matter a fig where the working capital comes from so long as Tesla has liquidity. In their spring 2012 investor presentation Tesla showed $493m of total liquidity.

You'd imagine that a reputable, financially savvy writer (journalist?) would correct those 2 pieces of nonsense that were posted in response to his article, right? Wrong:

JP: It's not going to be pretty. That's why I'm convinced they have to complete as stock offering this month. Come the end of June working capital and stockholders equity will both be under $100 million and the auditors will almost certainly force a *going concern* disclosure in the next Form 10-Q

At the end of Q1 Tesla Total Stockholders Equity was $154.8m; Q2 will probably not be pretty but JP ignores that costs will come down (see above on R&D and factory prep costs) and that as reservation payments become converted to revenue then liabilities will be reduced (remember back earlier in this post?), thereby improving the balance sheet. I very much doubt that Stockholders Equity will fall below $100m (as if it actually mattered BTW). Tesla had an end Q1 working capital of $123.2m but also noted in their Form 10-Q in May that:

Tesla: Net cash used in operating activities was $50.1 million during the three months ended March 31, 2012. The largest component of our cash used during this period related to our net loss of $89.9 million, which included non-cash charges of $10.7 million related to stock-based compensation expense, $4.2 million related to depreciation and amortization and $2.6 million related to inventory write-downs and adverse purchase commitments.

So does anyone other than JP care that working capital might fall below $100m? Tesla has plenty of room to play before anything gets critical.

Finally, JP's "going concern" comment is really scaremongering. Sure auditors must look at this especially in a company with heavy investment costs based on future revenue; but Tesla has enough cash in hand even if losses continued unabated for 12 months, and they have plenty of liquidity moving forward, plus they have a reservation list of some 11,000 people waiting to buy their cars as well as future contracts with Toyota and Mercedes. The only disclosures or risk warnings necessary will be those that are already in the public domain.

In short, Tesla has plenty of cash and liquidity even if losses continued at prior levels (which they shouldn't), they have a great potential income stream, and they have so much cash in hand it's not surprising it's been floated that they could start early repayment of the DoE loans. Is there risk in here? You bet, it's been heavy upfront investment and there are all sorts of things that could go wrong. Q2 might not be pretty, but just wait for Q3 and I suspect we'll all be smiling.
 
Last edited:
First - thanks so much! I've read it twice now and still haven't groked it all, but I'll give it another shot later. Funny how I can skim hundreds of lines of Java or Objective-C code and find/fix bugs, but reading less than 50 lines of accounting description makes my head spin. Second time through, I was proud of figuring out what "top line" meant!

...Tesla has $387 in cash at the end of Q1 and $113.3m in reservation deposits ... In their spring 2012 investor presentation Tesla showed $493m of total liquidity.

To be fair, the Spring presentation was quoting liquidity as of Dec 31, 2011, so they burned through $106million during Q1 of 2012. I think that's why you said Tesla could go another 4 quarters and still have liquidity - and that's under the false assumption that assembly line ramp up costs don't decrease, which they surely will.

In thinking about what you wrote, I think we may have an explanation for the lackluster stock price given all the good news. You said that Q2 won't be pretty, so perhaps when Q2 financials are announced the stock may present another buying opportunity - that is unless the news surrounding the cars having been produced doesn't overwhelm it.

Thanks again.
 
First - thanks so much! I've read it twice now and still haven't groked it all, but I'll give it another shot later. Funny how I can skim hundreds of lines of Java or Objective-C code and find/fix bugs, but reading less than 50 lines of accounting description makes my head spin. Second time through, I was proud of figuring out what "top line" meant!

Hey, you could show me computer code and you might as well be asking me to read Greek! My takeaway is that JP is not lying but he is effectively encouraging misunderstandings when his resume suggests he should know better; he's not stupid so one can conclude that he's following some ulterior motive.

To be fair, the Spring presentation was quoting liquidity as of Dec 31, 2011, so they burned through $106million during Q1 of 2012. I think that's why you said Tesla could go another 4 quarters and still have liquidity - and that's under the false assumption that assembly line ramp up costs don't decrease, which they surely will.

Without going into detail you are correct in principle. The only caveat is that changes in liquidity are not purely related to "burning" through cash on one-time expenses. I would have expected to see liquidity hit by things like component purchases for products not on sale yet as well as for investments in tooling, apart from pure variable expenses.

In thinking about what you wrote, I think we may have an explanation for the lackluster stock price given all the good news. You said that Q2 won't be pretty, so perhaps when Q2 financials are announced the stock may present another buying opportunity - that is unless the news surrounding the cars having been produced doesn't overwhelm it.

Maybe. Share price is a reflection of how a company has performed, but also an indication of the perceived risk going forward. I suspect the top line won't look good, but if costs are down and Tesla can point to Model S deliveries starting problem-free then we could also see a spike. IMO this remains a volatile stock not for the faint-hearted. (P.S. I'm not a financial adviser! Buy or sell shares at your own risk.)

Thanks again.

You're welcome.
 
Last edited:
R&D costs also include component testing for everything from wear and tear to artificial aging, and potentially multiple cycles. How many components are there on a Model S? Powered seats...there's probably a hundred or more there alone. Crash tests, Beta's, you name it, many of those costs would have been in Q1 and many will carry over to Q2.

Agree with Norbert's comment above.
 
Q2 will probably not be pretty but JP ignores that costs will come down (see above on R&D and factory prep costs) and that as reservation payments become converted to revenue then liabilities will be reduced (remember back earlier in this post?), thereby improving the balance sheet.

NigelM, thanks so much for you insights.

One thing that might be worthwhile here is to take a look at the recent Morgan Stanley research note. Like many stock research firms do, they have developed a model of the Tesla balance sheet for the current fiscal year. Theirs show R&D actually going up in Q2 (they estimate $82M in Q2), before going down in Q3 ($45M estimate) and down more in Q4 ($35M estimate).

So when you say Q2 won't be pretty, in terms of the balance sheet that is probably true. Morgan Stanley's estimate is a net loss of $113M, which may or may not cause a little dip in the stock price.

Most analyst firms maintain a price target for the stock in the range of $42-45, so that is my expectation for the stock price by year end.

Morgan Stanley's Model S unit forecast for this year is very conservative (3000 versus Tesla's guidance of 5000). So stock price could go higher if Tesla produces 5000 cars as they said they will, and there are no quality issues.
 
Last edited:
I agree. My personal view is that the Q2 balance sheet is largely irrelevant unless there's an earth shattering catastrophe. Leading indicators are far more important and that means three things in the short term:

1. Rate of Model S production
2. Incidence of problems (or not) with the Model S
3. Growth of the Mercedes powertrain supply deal

Don't forget that Q2 results probably won't be released until probably the second week in August; there's plenty of time for news to develop around the Model S deliveries before then.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.