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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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Cobalt price got ahead of itself when even certain hedge funds were literally buying it up and storing it. I think that likely had a larger effect on spot prices than contracted prices. It started dropping this year as a combination I'd say of Tesla's slower ramp, the improved cobalt chemistry (similar to NMC 811 levels), and probably the horribly slow ramp of competition. I mean that's just my interpretation.

The cobalt market always struck me as people trying to be too clever for their own good. The initial investment rush was in lithium, so cobalt became the "clever" investment. "You're just investing because lithium is in the name, but you also need the cobalt for any decent chemistry, dummy!" Except, of course, lithium is fundamental to any li-ion, while cobalt isn't, and it's been obvious for a while that everyone's been working at reducing or eliminating it without sacrificing safety or performance.

You can of course also reduce lithium content in li-ion batteries, and that may be the next big battleground, but there's not as much improvement. You can reduce the fraction of inert lithium per cell which doesn't take part in reactions, but a solid majority of lithium in li-ions today is active. Yes, there's alternative ions to lithium - such as sodium-ion - but they're an entirely new tech which requires reinventing pretty much everything (same story as with solid state cells). Sodium ions are larger than lithium ions so you can't use the same membranes, they don't intercalate the same in traditional anode and cathode materials, etc. And solid-state li-ion or Li-S might be the successor to li-ion rather than na-ion. Basically, lithium has always been a much safer bet than cobalt.

Not that cobalt prices are cheap, mind you. They're just not as insane ;)
 
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Now if you measure against NASDAQ futures and do it intraday then on most days there's significant correlation.

Longer term price correlation is much lower, mostly because during the past 24 months Tesla went through several re-valuation phases and significant corporate events.

But in terms of "unconstrained" correlation NASDAQ intraday volatility maps to TSLA volatility with a 2x-3x multiplier.
OK, I haven't looked into intraday stuff -- *because I'm a long-termer*. But over the longer time frame, Tesla's been uncorrelated with the broader markets (not correlated with S&P, not correlated with NASDAQ, not correlated with FANG) for its entire existence, since 2013. It's *consistently* uncorrelated.

I wouldn't be surprised if TSLA volatility spikes when NASDAQ volatility spikes, but half the time TSLA moves in the opposite direction from NASDAQ. (And yes, it is *half* -- otherwise it would be negatively correlated!)

The uncorrelatedness actually has been rather useful to me.
 
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Dyson's electric car - our vision of what it will be like | Autocar
To be built in Singapore.
Not sure if this is because I am a brit, or that I have an ex colleague working on it or for hopefully less superfluous reasons - but this is the only one I'm interested in. Shame that Apple aren't putting up a stronger fight - they really could do if they just got on with it (being 2nd best in the market wouldn't have to undermine their brand value as long as they have a unique angle). I was also hoping Dyson were going to go cheaper but it sounds more like they want to compete with Tesla. Colourful plastic panels on a back to basics Smart car rip-off will do well I'm sure whoever comes up with it.
Today will most likely be the last day that discussing Tesla competitors (killers) is relevant so I thought I would get this in before we all start stressing over tax bills...
I think it's great that they are trying... but I doubt they really know the full scope of the mountain that's in front of them. Feels kinda like Richard Branson trying out the space business.
 
OK, I haven't looked into intraday stuff -- *because I'm a long-termer*.

Yeah, but it still matters: with a TSLA daily range of $10-$20 the entry and exit price improvements from being aware of intraday characteristics are still significant.

When you are earning options time premiums in the $20-$40 range then intraday lows/highs are a significant factor.

For example yesterday was a bullish day for TSLA, still many of the daily highs triggered within seconds of NASDAQ futures breaking through daily highs - and TSLA pulled back when NASDAQ pulled back. So if you were looking for a good entry or exit point you could have gotten significant edge from being aware of the daily cycle - regardless of the intended time frame of the position.
 
But I don't for a second think that the current cobalt spot price represents a valid future prognostication of a world where Tesla is selling kWh's at 250$ a pop. That would chew up multiples of global production very rapidly

There's only ~10 pounds of cobalt in a Model 3 LR, so at the current $27 spot price it's $270 per unit. Price could go up 10x and still be only an annoyance (with the cost passed through to customers).

So I fail to see the problem: hedge funds and nickel mine operators tried to corner the cobalt market but miscalculated betting against a first-principles physicist who specialized in materials science, and who also owns a rocket company which rocket company is at the (top secret) bleeding edge of materials science research.

That's not a bet I'd recommend taking.
 
OK, I haven't looked into intraday stuff -- *because I'm a long-termer*. But over the longer time frame, Tesla's been uncorrelated with the broader markets (not correlated with S&P, not correlated with NASDAQ, not correlated with FANG) for its entire existence, since 2013. It's *consistently* uncorrelated.

I wouldn't be surprised if TSLA volatility spikes when NASDAQ volatility spikes, but half the time TSLA moves in the opposite direction from NASDAQ. (And yes, it is *half* -- otherwise it would be negatively correlated!)

The uncorrelatedness actually has been rather useful to me.

I separated Nasdaq/macros from TSLA in my mind. I know that there is a bond which can drag TSLA up or down with the market.
Tesla is young company with still small share. Tesla sales is roughly 0,3M with no problem to increase sales by up to 10x or even more. Sale is not a problem. If I speculate that recession is coming from 3-24 months and the Tesla production will be aprox 1M then there will be limited impact to sales. Tesla is just far away in the size according to market needs, so I do not think that in the core (fundamental) there will be big impact from macros side.

I can't say that for ICE industry! They are breading with the economy. When GDP is affected that you can see drop of sales. If some of big producers come to trouble and goes bankrupt than you get another volume unlocked. If you do not have products that market need the probability of failure increases. Each investment in the ICE development today is a waste of money and time. Recession just accelerates development and shrinks possibility for turnaround.

The recession after next one will probably have influence from macros side on Tesla too.
So I separated macros from TSLA in a core for long investment.
 
Cobalt price got ahead of itself when even certain hedge funds were literally buying it up and storing it. I think that likely had a larger effect on spot prices than contracted prices. It started dropping this year as a combination I'd say of Tesla's slower ramp, the improved cobalt chemistry (similar to NMC 811 levels), and probably the horribly slow ramp of competition. I mean that's just my interpretation.

But I don't for a second think that the current cobalt spot price represents a valid future prognostication of a world where Tesla is selling kWh's at 250$ a pop. That would chew up multiples of global production very rapidly.

I do hope they have the cobalt-free chemistry. If they do, and if somehow they can control that exclusively, that is a BIG deal. It's probably insanely valuable even if they have to sacrifice some superior properties e.g. energy density or durability.
Tesla could start making cobalt-free batteries if they needed to, for example LFP, but it's more important to get good bang-for-buck for the Cobalt used. Energy density is really important, as greater energy density means you can reduce material costs right across the board, as well as labour costs. And larger battery packs for automotive need cells with high energy density, to be able to compare favourably with ICE vehicles for performance/driving dynamics/etc.

Since Tesla could at any point start making LFP, I don't think it's essential to get to a cobalt-free Nickel-based chemistry, you just need to reduce the amount of Cobalt down to a managable level. And as long at Tesla is able to stay ahead of the competition, they have a competitive advantage. If Tesla uses half the cobalt of the competition, for equal cell characteristics, Tesla can pay twice as much for the Cobalt as the competition for equal revenue and profit. The competition basically wouldn't be able to compete on bids for Cobalt where Tesla participates. They might be priced out of the market.

Currently on the NCA 2170s, Tesla uses around 50 grams per kWh. If we say Tesla uses 10% of global Cobalt output, or around 10,000 metric tons per year, that allows them to make 200 GWh/year. Getting down to 25 grams per kWh allows them to make 400 GWh/year.

At $200 per kWh, 200 GWh/year would be $40B/year, and 400 GWh/year would be $80B/year.

One big issue is the Cobalt-usage for the Tesla Energy cells. Tesla uses NMC for durability, but likely not even NMC 811. It may be closer to NMC 333. If so, Tesla uses *way* more cobalt in Tesla Energy than in Tesla Automotive. Like 800 grams/kWh. LFP may be more suited for stationary storage, unless Tesla has managed to reduce cobalt without impacting durability. So, I'm keeping my hopes for Tesla Energy in check.
 
If that should prove to be the case indefinately, are there any unfilled gaps historically? In the $50-$200 range is what I'm thinking of? If so that's pretty uncommon.
I can't pretend to understand the gap thing but wouldn't May 9th, 2013 qualify? We passed $60 for the first and last time during after hours trade.
 
I can't pretend to understand the gap thing but wouldn't May 9th, 2013 qualify? We passed $60 for the first and last time during after hours trade.

It's relevant if I plan to trade like this:

When the price reaches $1 above the previous all time high I will sell.
When the price falls $30 below that price I will buy.
Repeat till rich.

It's a plan that only comes unstuck if that 30 below price is never revisited and I'm left watching the market sail away.
 
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