TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

[EVNow]

The US has relatively low tax rates on capital gains and so in some really extreme cases that can result in extremely wealthy individuals paying taxes at very low rates, but that is not typical. The top .1% of the US population pays a higher effective tax rate than the 1%, which in turns pays a higher rate than any other income bracket (save the top .1% obviously) .

This is the main problem. We are literally saying lazy income (capital gains) is preferred to income earned through hard work (wages).

The other way to look at it is what is the disposable income as a % of income ?

ps : Compared to what FDR proposed and Ike, a Republican, signed - this is outright robbery.

 

[tivoboy]

Do you just buy back in immediately if called away? (You personally.)

depends on where I see the stock going. I might just re-buy if a push has been made (but I don't see 357.25$ as an example for next week, we have another STRONG resistance at 355$.. that's why I like this particular pick.

And, I still see something lower (covers head and face and protects eyes while saying) for either macro or micro issues. Would re-buy then.
Also depends on where I hold the stock and where the calls were sold. If in my IRA/SEP/i401K I'll don't have any tax impact for these weeklies. But I trade this and all the other stocks in about 10 different accounts I manage so the scenario can't always be the same.

 

[Tslynk67]

The US has relatively low tax rates on capital gains and so in some really extreme cases that can result in extremely wealthy individuals paying taxes at very low rates, but that is not typical. The top .1% of the US population pays a higher effective tax rate than the 1%, which in turns pays a higher rate than any other income bracket (save the top .1% obviously) .

This is addressed in the second link in my post, which is also where the above chart is located.



This is also addressed in my second link:



This is all I am going to say on tax policy in this thread as it obviously isn't the place for it. I hope this is sufficient to disabuse anyone of the counterfactual notion that the US's tax policy is not highly progressive.

That may well be true, but you can be sure that the richer people get the less %age of their money is exposed to taxes, so they end up paying a very low %age of their total wealth.

 

[mongo]

This is the main problem. We are literally saying lazy income (capital gains) is preferred to hard working income.

Don't capital gains come from investing in a company which creates jobs (employees who pay taxes) along with corporate income which is also taxed? If so, what is wrong with incentivizing investment that produces more overall tax revenue?

 

[EVNow]

And, I still see something lower (covers head and face and protects eyes while saying) for either macro or micro issues.

I think the mid-terms make it somewhat risky - there can be a bull run or a continued bearish trend.

But for the last month of correction, I'd have assumed post election will be a downturn. Now, I'm not so sure - in fact if there is no suspense about the outcome, I expect a few days of bull run.

ps : Specifically for Tesla there are a number of unknown news items that can move the SP quite a bit - just this / next week.
- Well known shorts announcing they have turned long
- Any number of analysts upgrading
- Musk tweeting something good/bad
- Market likes/doesn't like/neutral on the chairman announcement

 

[UnknownSoldier]

This is the main problem. We are literally saying lazy income (capital gains) is preferred to income earned through hard work (wages).

The other way to look at it is what is the disposable income as a % of income ?

ps : Compared to what FDR proposed and Ike, a Republican, signed - this is outright robbery.

The other issue is that the very wealthy have very little actual reported income of any kind, earned income (wages) or capital gains. There is not a wealth tax and so the wealthy can stay wealthy forever for the rest of their family's generational history simply by hoarding it.

 

[winfield100]

NON-moderator warning:
I followed your Tw-links - PLEASE ALL NOTE that a bunch of those so-called "Verified Elon Musk" comments are not his - they're coming from "alovelikepi".

Caveat lector, all.

is that why my antimalware software is going berserk blocking all kinds of hijack attempts?

 

[UnknownSoldier]

Don't capital gains come from investing in a company which creates jobs (employees who pay taxes) along with corporate income which is also taxed? If so, what is wrong with incentivizing investment that produces more overall tax revenue?

Furthermore, we are all in a Tesla investors forum here. All of us except that retired Ford dealer owner are trying to ride the coattails of Elon nearly working himself to death every day to wealth ourselves. Complaining about taxes on capital gains having preferential treatment to earned income here seems a bit hilarious in that context.

 

[EVNow]

Don't capital gains come from investing in a company which creates jobs (employees who pay taxes) along with corporate income which is also taxed? If so, what is wrong with incentivizing investment that produces more overall tax revenue?

Companies don't pay taxes if people don't work hard. So, why ignore those wages ?

Besides, we are a democracy - not an oligarchy. So you need to reduce the influence of rich folks on our democracy.

 

[EVNow]

Complaining about taxes on capital gains having preferential treatment to earned income here seems a bit hilarious in that context.

Not really - afterall Bill Gates has advocated for higher taxes, so has Warren Buffet.

Our ideologies and ethical considerations don't have to align with our pure monitory self interest.

 

[EVNow]

Market News : 348 tested once more … 4th time today ?

 

[MartinAustin]

First resistance level is at $348. Let's see what happens.

Looks like today's fourth test of $348 is coming up!!!

(literally thinking the same thing as EVNow at the same time)

 

[Boomer19]

is that why my antimalware software is going berserk blocking all kinds of hijack attempts?

twitter, like facebook, and others, doesn’t have a solid account validation technique to prove that the account is actually that person. can argue many reasons..but a couple are;

- it’s tedious to verify someone, especially after the fact. for example when you set up bank or brokerage acct you send copy of ID and it goes through a KYC (know your customer) check, amongst other vetting.

- but this vetting upon setup would reduce the total users, and the DAU, MAU (daily/monthly avg users) metrics that analysts love ...that seemingly drive their revenue models (for advertising sales), therefore stifling the stocks trajectory (arguable if this would matter over the long haul, if they started out more responsibly from the beginning)

therefore, you can be a real person, but create a fake an elon musk account, or a bot faking an elon musk account...
(even though the name isn’t the “checkmark verified” elon musk account)

and those fake accounts run crypto scams because elon has 23mm followers, giving them efficien way to target a large audience with one scam tweet

in short, it’s bullshit, and it should be stopped. and its also how election tampering works.

twitter and facebook motto;
let’s topple governments and steal people’s crypto!
join us and share all your personal information! weeeee!

 

[Fact Checking]

The top .1% of the US population pays a higher effective tax rate than the 1%, which in turns pays a higher rate than any other income bracket (save the top .1% obviously) .

That figure is extremely incomplete and thus extremely misleading, because it doesn't include corporate holdings and a whole array of investment and wealth management vehicles that generate income and wealth but are not taxed via federal or state income taxes.

Just a simple figure to understand reality: the top 0.1 has generated as many assets as the bottom 90%, but has paid only a small fraction of tax for the wealth they own.

Total wealth in the U.S. is now around ~110 trillion dollars:

In 2000 it crossed 40 trillion dollars.

So in 18 years ~70 trillion dollars of wealth was created - a majority of it owned by the top 0.1% - who paid very few taxes on it: over 18 years their tax revenue (including corporate taxes) adds up to only around 10% of their true income.

 

[brian45011]

As an example, one may have noticed that in the Q3 letter we discovered that Tesla’s effective tax rate was 6% which is higher than many corporations pay.

Did you also happen to notice, it's dem ferrerners?

Our provision for income taxes increased by $16.9 million from a benefit of $0.3 million in the three months ended September 30, 2017 to a provision of $16.6 million in the three months ended September 30, 2018. This increase was due to increases in taxable profits in certain foreign jurisdictions.​

 

[brian45011]

The income of the real upper class is defined by the performance of companies that pay very little taxes if any at all (think Amazon and yes, Tesla).

Most corporate taxes are passed through to customers.

A major factor in Amazon's early success is that it ignored the Use Tax laws in all states it shipped products to. The state revenooers eventually caught up but by then Amazon had it's infrastructure and logistics systems in place and pivoted to the cloud and memberships.

 

[SpeedGoat]

Furthermore, we are all in a Tesla investors forum here. All of us except that retired Ford dealer owner are trying to ride the coattails of Elon nearly working himself to death every day to wealth ourselves. Complaining about taxes on capital gains having preferential treatment to earned income here seems a bit hilarious in that context.

I would be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of regulars at any investment forum are well above the median national income. The poor are statistically unlikely to be invested in the market at all, let alone individual stocks. Once you add in the fact that a huge percentage of the people here own late model luxury cars... lets just say the demographics here aren't typical.

It speaks to just what an outlier the US is that here one can own a car that costs more than the median -lifetime- income of some countries and yet still consider themselves something other than rich.

 

[AudubonB]

Most corporate taxes are passed through to customers.

That's not refutable per se, but it's more tautological than revealing. It's akin to saying "Most Costs of Good Sold are passed through to customers".

 

[KarenRei]

The US has relatively low tax rates on capital gains and so in some really extreme cases that can result in extremely wealthy individuals paying taxes at very low rates, but that is not typical. The top .1% of the US population pays a higher effective tax rate than the 1%, which in turns pays a higher rate than any other income bracket (save the top .1% obviously) .

Your image literally lists the types of taxes included and capital gains taxes is not in the list.

In order to make the tax burden look like it falls on the wealthy, they had to include things like estate taxes and even corporate taxes.

 

[Anstandswauwau]

Boom!

Edit: Jinxed it, I'm sorry