Todd Burch
14-Year Member
Thought to ponder: Every well-publicized AP accident to date (I think) has been the result of inattention. Can't think of one that would have been prevented by having hands on the wheel for quick reaction.
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That's not the way I burn weed.To be equally fair, weed burners are for sale in hardware stores throughout the state.
Zhelko Dimic
Careful bull
In B2B, everything is negotiable. Especially with 'strategic partners', stuff that looks good PR.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that your outright refusal of possibility seems a bit, well, (sorry to say it) naive.
I actually don't think this happened (yet), because I don't think Tesla has established process and salespeople to nurture this market. Once they do, 'deals' of all kinds wouldn't surprise me. Sales people are natural burn hunters, they'll extract their pound of flesh one way or another.
Agree.
I fly a King Air 350 with Collins Proline21. AP is on at 400’ agl and turned off after full flaps for landing. Only time I have my hand on controls with AP on is for when we’re in moderate or greater turbulence so I can take over if it kicks off.
With a Tesla, my hands will always be ready to take over w/AP on. Whole laundry list of things to go wrong driving on the ground w/AP vs flying in the air, IMO. That being said, can’t wait to get my 3 in July and use EAP, not to mention what future software updates will do to make it even better/safer.
One essential reason for keeping hands on wheel with Tesla autopilot is to be able to feel the wheel make a turn and responding very quickly if the wheel should not be making a turn. You can sense the car turning with seat of the pants feel, but hands on the wheel is really the quickest way to sense the autopilot is doing something you might not want it to. Thus, hands on wheel gives you expedited sense that something is wrong, and hands on wheel puts you in a position to respond within half a second.
There have been studies in aviation that once you lose situational awareness it takes several seconds to regain it and respond properly. In a car traveling at 60mph, that's too long. The hands on the wheel is, of course, a way of keeping someone from spending minutes at a itme texting on their phone. That's really the third, unspoken, reason for hands on the wheel. Every one of these autopilot crashes came about because the person behind the wheel was in lala land instead of engaged in the act of driving.
As for aviation autopilot hands on the wheel, you pilots who do Cat II and Cat III approaches surely have someone with one hand on wheel and one on throttles/toga button when you are very close to the ground. That's really the situation that an automobile autopilot is in most the time... seconds away from bumping into something if autopilot screws up. Until Tesla achieves true autonomous driving, hands on the wheel is the way to go.
There have been studies in aviation that once you lose situational awareness it takes several seconds to regain it and respond properly. In a car traveling at 60mph, that's too long. The hands on the wheel is, of course, a way of keeping someone from spending minutes at a itme texting on their phone. That's really the third, unspoken, reason for hands on the wheel. Every one of these autopilot crashes came about because the person behind the wheel was in lala land instead of engaged in the act of driving.
As for aviation autopilot hands on the wheel, you pilots who do Cat II and Cat III approaches surely have someone with one hand on wheel and one on throttles/toga button when you are very close to the ground. That's really the situation that an automobile autopilot is in most the time... seconds away from bumping into something if autopilot screws up. Until Tesla achieves true autonomous driving, hands on the wheel is the way to go.
bambam4171
Member
It is Tesla's problem because people are crashing their cars. Not only does that lead to "Tesla's Autopilot is unsafe" but to "Tesla's are unsafe" So there is an enormous risk that the brand is being damaged to a very large degree. Even if they are inferior: How many crashes can you list while using Cadillacs Supercruise? How many that have happened with other Level 2-3 Systems? Exactly.
To be honest, I think People crashing in Teslas is one of the biggest issues there is and Tesla very urgently needs to do something about it.
bambam4171
Member
We are in the same fights and we both know this is a sore point and one that can hit Tesla real big. I fully agree with you!
bambam4171
Member
Thing is that it does not matter if they crash at a similar rate as average. Because Tesla is high profile every crash makes international news, no kidding. The idiot that hit the cop car yesterday made headline on many swiss outlets. So the understanding of average Joe is: Teslas are really unsafe, you know they really crash all the times.
Mike Smith
Active Member
This recent dip into the 270s felt a lot like the Spiegel Bottom to me - like a last gasp of negativity. I think the last two days were just the beginning of a very big move. I think a lot of the shorts added in the last month were just hoping for a quick bankruptcy, and will start covering Friday when the Insideevs report makes it clear that isn't going to happen. People thinking they can wait until 5k/wk is confirmed will miss out on a huge move in my opinion.
Edit: I also think the upcoming annual shareholder meeting is an underrated catalyst. Musk will have full control of the narrative - no analyst questions. He'll make everything sound extremely positive, and there could even be product/deal announcements.
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The InsideEVs report is going to just be an estimate again, surely, unless by then Elon / Tesla has already announced hard numbers - since normally they only report quarterly and thus InsideEVs just guesses and then adjusts the final month to make the months add up to the official quarterly number.
The Model 3 frequently asks me to put my hands on the wheel when they're already fully on the wheel (I'm not talking about just a pinky or something). And more than once I've had to put enough torque on the wheel to 'prove' I'm holding the wheel and keep Autopilot engaged that I end up disengaging Autopilot. The 3 requires far more torque than my Volvo in order to convince the car that I'm hands-on.
I imagine this will continue to be tweaked with software updates. In the meantime, the thought has crossed my mind that should I get into an accident, it's feasible that Tesla would claim I was hands-off when I'm not.
This is hardly a topic for market action thread but since you and @TNEVol brought it up, there is indeed a technique to holding the steering wheel on autopilot so the system “knows” you are holding the wheel. Rest your hand(s) at 3 and 9 and relax your arm: done properly this will put at least 1lb of force on the wheel, unless of course you have stick arms. A lot of people drive at 6 o’clock position because it is a more restful position, autopilot will have no clue you have a hand on the wheel in this position.
As to your other point about Tesla claiming where your hands are in an accident, although it could be accurate would only most likely be the result of you being involved in an accident where your negligence appears obvious. Bottom line: don’t smash into walls/medians, stopped cars, or drive off roads. This should all be possible by paying attention and being ready to take over.
K_Dizzle
Member
I suspect a high percentage of all accidents are caused by inattention. There are outliers like DUI or street racing and probably some caused by mechanical failure somehow. But if an accident happens outside of winter driving its usually because the driver sucks.
davecolene0606
Member
Yup, in cruise, no wx, >10Kagl, smooth, two guys watching and nuthin else goin on. Anything else, hands on, i.e. “ready to draw”.
To Papafox’s point the SA is great with hands on in current AP iteration.
Additionally, what AP allows is the ability to glance at ones surroundings (L, R, Rear view mirror) without the vehicle wandering and a level of protection to not rear end the vehicle in front. This is a prime benefit of aviation autopilot by allowing pilots to be continually aware of surrounding conditions and traffic whilst maintaining heading and altitude and or nav maneuvering.
The key is it allows you to enhance your ability to pay even more attention to what your doing... driving
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hacer
Active Member
There have been a few reports such as Youyou's that claim the AP made a sudden sharp swerve. I've never experienced that in two years with AP1 (perhaps 14k miles on AP). If it is capable of that then having hands on the wheel would be important.
davecolene0606
Member
Fatigue is huge here. Lost my Wife to a guy who hadn’t slept for the previous 23 hours.
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