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[UK Discussion] This is what a self driving car looks like

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That's true, at least not without additional equipment. Don't believe I've ever seen a 'front camera obscured' message. However this is also true of every other kind of sensor though, they're all blocked by something otherwise they wouldn't be any use as a sensor. Lidar uses light, just light you can't see with your eyes, so a Lidar emitter would have the same weakness. It is true that the rear camera on the Y seems quite prone to picking up dirt.
you did not what?!
- drive any country road at night - "left pillar/righ pillar camera blocked or has poor visibility" - EVERY TIME.
- drive during winter for an hour and then try to park using rear view camera - good luck with that
- drive during heavy rain/snow - "Speed reduced due to poor visibility" on AP, although I have no problem to see.
- Front camera blocked due to poor visibility when sun is shining

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You know we use cameras to take photos of the actual surface of the sun, right?
Can the cameras installed on the car, or any car on the market for that matter, do that? No, I didn't think so.

However this is also true of every other kind of sensor though, they're all blocked by something otherwise they wouldn't be any use as a sensor.
And that's why everybody else uses a combination of different sensors so that if one is not working another can pick up the slack.
 
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technology is not there yet, most probably...
Your own response to glare is the solution..drop the vizor, if that's no good then shade a hand over your eyes and drop gaze, drive slower. Until Tesla have redundant cameras, shade, polarized , tube extrusions etc and lens cleaning, heating systems in place for all cameras then they are just using drivers as cheap testers and fodder for their learning process.
Yes there will be believers and enthusiasts happy to accommodate Tesla's learning process but years to go before these cars are a relaxing self drive experience one can trust. Retrofitting will never happen and I've lost faith.
 
you did not what?!
- drive any country road at night - "left pillar/righ pillar camera blocked or has poor visibility" - EVERY TIME.
- drive during winter for an hour and then try to park using rear view camera - good luck with that
- drive during heavy rain/snow - "Speed reduced due to poor visibility" on AP, although I have no problem to see.
- Front camera blocked due to poor visibility when sun is shining

I've never seen any of those messages in my MY, and I've logged many thousands of miles with Autopilot on. At nighttime, facing straight into a sunset, in heavy downpouring rain, in snow, on both highways and back country roads (though always with painted lines on both sides of the road).

I'm beginning to wonder if various Tesla's somehow perform very differently from one another... 🤔
 
I've never seen any of those messages in my MY, and I've logged many thousands of miles with Autopilot on. At nighttime, facing straight into a sunset, in heavy downpouring rain, in snow, on both highways and back country roads (though always with painted lines on both sides of the road).

I'm beginning to wonder if various Tesla's somehow perform very differently from one another... 🤔
i do 20k+ a year. most of it on auytopilot.
it was not the case before september/october 2022, when it used radar. is the case now on TV

all in all, please comment about your thousands on miles once you done them in winter in UK and not in Pensylvania which is at 42nd lattitude, which is an equivalent of Spain.

because the front camera blocked (BY THE SUN) you get daily from November to end of February in UK. go figure
 
Can the cameras installed on the car, or any car on the market for that matter, do that? No, I didn't think so.
Are you planning to drive on the sun? If not then I don't see this as a crushing blow. However hopefully we can agree that if cameras are capable of taking photos of the sun they're probably also capable of dealing with having it in frame.

And that's why everybody else uses a combination of different sensors so that if one is not working another can pick up the slack.
Which makes the vehicle more complex and failure prone, increases power demands for both running the sensors and digesting their output and obviously increases the purchase price of the vehicle. It also introduces the need to reconcile different outputs from those sensors (though I think Musk may have been overstating how big an issue that is). Everything has tradeoffs and the fundamental principle that humans manage in all the conditions we're capable of using vision only. There is no reason why an automated system can't do it either.

Now can you make a system better if you accept all those tradeoffs? Sure. Radar can see through fog so you can safely drive faster in those conditions, for one. Evidently Tesla have decided that exceeding human capability in this particular direction is not part of their objectives at this time.
 
Your own response to glare is the solution..drop the vizor, if that's no good then shade a hand over your eyes and drop gaze, drive slower. Until Tesla have redundant cameras, shade, polarized , tube extrusions etc and lens cleaning, heating systems in place for all cameras then they are just using drivers as cheap testers and fodder for their learning process.
Yes there will be believers and enthusiasts happy to accommodate Tesla's learning process but years to go before these cars are a relaxing self drive experience one can trust. Retrofitting will never happen and I've lost faith.
or just re-enable radar and all jolly good as there were no "camera blocked, reducing speed" messages BEFORE TV
 
Are you planning to drive on the sun? If not then I don't see this as a crushing blow. However hopefully we can agree that if cameras are capable of taking photos of the sun they're probably also capable of dealing with having it in frame.
No. this just shows the fcuking problem when camera is blocked by the sun for 30% of the year
Which makes the vehicle more complex and failure prone, increases power demands for both running the sensors and digesting their output and obviously increases the purchase price of the vehicle. It also introduces the need to reconcile different outputs from those sensors (though I think Musk may have been overstating how big an issue that is). Everything has tradeoffs and the fundamental principle that humans manage in all the conditions we're capable of using vision only. There is no reason why an automated system can't do it either.

Now can you make a system better if you accept all those tradeoffs? Sure. Radar can see through fog so you can safely drive faster in those conditions, for one. Evidently Tesla have decided that exceeding human capability in this particular direction is not part of their objectives at this time.
that is pure BS. ONLY for tesla this is somehow an issue. And not for anybody else. somehow "not a software companies like MB, BMW, VW, KIA and others have no issue mixing multiple sensors for few decades. only smart tesla has issues there.

maybe if they stopped inventing wheel at some extent - maybe, just maybe, it would be working for tesla as well
 
I've never seen any of those messages in my MY, and I've logged many thousands of miles with Autopilot on. At nighttime, facing straight into a sunset, in heavy downpouring rain, in snow, on both highways and back country roads (though always with painted lines on both sides of the road).

I'm beginning to wonder if various Tesla's somehow perform very differently from one another... 🤔
Country roads with white lines each side? That would be a major road in Wales, let along when you get to the impossible single track stuff with overtaking bays (aka mud patches and gate entrances). It's not helped by headlights dipping at every sharp bend with chevrons reflecting back at the car.
 
Can we please stop using the regs as an excuse for poor implementation by Tesla.

The lateral limits are perfectly reasonable, other car manufacturers abide by them and don’t seem to have as much of a hard time dealing with them.

The solution is, as most drivers would do, is reduce the speed of the car to match the corber and road conditions. But Teslas approach is to career in without reducing speed then suddenly finding mid corner that it’s exceeding the limits so immediately throws a wobble and tells driver to take over.

Reduce speed, keep within limits. Pretty simple?

It’s a major flaw that I hope single stack will address.

These are all moot arguments. All of this has been changed in FSD. I have zero issues with sharp corners with it, and it slows appropriately going into the corner.

Sorry you guys across the pond don't get the latest code, you will just have to be patient there.
 
Theory fine but radar would have to have much, much higher resolution, multiple radars and capable of dealing with things radar are not good for - I doubt the echo off a sheep works too well. In conjunction though is different..
well, radas worked on tesla as well... had issues with phantom braking, but worked

the funny thing is, radars have been in use for TACC on all car makes and worked no issues. only for tesla it is a problem.
 
So, the UK doesn't get the latest software, there are legal requirements/restrictions that affect how the car operates, the weather/latitude is different causing lighting and vision issues to act in different ways and the entire road system is different from the types of roads, cars, signs, widths, paint and the side we drive on.

And people are wondering why a system trained mostly in the sunny southern parts of the USA doesn't operate the same? Am I missing something here?
 
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that is pure BS. ONLY for tesla this is somehow an issue. And not for anybody else. somehow "not a software companies like MB, BMW, VW, KIA and others have no issue mixing multiple sensors for few decades. only smart tesla has issues there.

maybe if they stopped inventing wheel at some extent - maybe, just maybe, it would be working for tesla as well
Buddy, if nobody ever reinvented the wheel it'd still be made of stone. Sometimes incremental improvements are not enough and someone has to go back to the beginning to find the next step forward.

Anyway, you'll note that I said all of that was possible if you accept the trade offs of cost and complexity. Remind me which companies are currently struggling failing to keep up with Tesla because they can't build cars at the same cost Telsa can and make any money? And which companies make cars with driver positions that are an absolute clusterfuck of buttons and switches? Seems like they are indeed happy with both trade offs.
 
So, the UK doesn't get the latest software, there are legal requirements/restrictions that affect how the car operates, the weather/latitude is different causing lighting and vision issues to act in different ways and the entire road system is different from the types of roads, cars, signs, widths, paint and the side we drive on.

And people are wondering why a system trained mostly in the sunny southern parts of the USA doesn't operate the same? Am I missing something here?

First, that assumption is false - the FSD system is trained in ALL of the USA and Canada. Last time I checked, Canada gets a ton more snow than the UK.

Second - AP as it is deployed in the UK meets all their legal requirements. That's VERY different than customers being happy with the codebase, which has now been eclipsed. Just like in the US, because it's a L2 system that REQUIRES human supervision, that legal bar is very low.
 
First, that assumption is false - the FSD system is trained in ALL of the USA and Canada. Last time I checked, Canada gets a ton more snow than the UK.

Second - AP as it is deployed in the UK meets all their legal requirements. That's VERY different than customers being happy with the codebase, which has now been eclipsed. Just like in the US, because it's a L2 system that REQUIRES human supervision, that legal bar is very low.
But there are significantly more cars sold in the USA than Canada, right? A system trained on vast quantities of data, would learn the most from the most amount of data available? More US data than Canadian would mean it learns more about US roads? The weather is also significantly different in Canada than the UK, particularly the type of snow and dryness of it etc. I have noticed that the Now You Know guys seem to have more issues with rain with their FSD around Boston, since their rain is different to other parts of the USA. I'd guess the UK would have similar issues. Which is my point. The system is going to react differently in different countries with different weather, sun positions etc. So we agree there, I guess.

And you agree with my point about the legal requirements making the Tesla autopilot in the UK act differently to the autopilot/FSD in the USA. I'm glad we agree on that too.
 
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My model 3 is 3 years old. I have FSD
there was a time when it slowed appropriately for bends
there was a time when all speed limit signs were recognised
there was a time when auto lane worked where it should
there was a time when summon, limited in the U.K. by regs, worked almost every time
there was never a time when Autopark worked more than 10% of the time.
there was never a time the pillar cameras were free of condensation

I’ve had at least 84 software updates
some of the above got better and worse again.
some of the above got worse and better again

Everything above is not working properly under the latest software

speed limit recognition is worse than wipers at the moment. …and that’s saying something

My 2012 Prius could autopark better and my 2018 Ioniq could lane change better.

It’s high time for Tesla to deliver on it’s promises assuming they aren’t “aspirational”
 
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