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UK Electricity Tariffs for EVs
- Thread starter interbear
- Start date
I don’t think you’ll get a definitive answer on smart meters from any supplier. My feeling is that all the suppliers are struggling with the rollout.
My advice would be to switch, and then bug them like hell once you’ve transferred.
If you go to someone like Octopus (for whom I can supply a referral code
) at least there are no exit fees, so if you can’t get a smart meter from them within a reasonable time, at least you can jump ship again.
What they need is a bit of competition in the smart meter market. The consumer ought to be able to go to a smart meter supplier of choice and arrange installation themselves. Bill picked up by energy supplier.
Possibly .
The problem however is that they don't appear to work nationally with vast communication blackspots.
Pretty Pixx poor project management frankly.
The problem however is that they don't appear to work nationally with vast communication blackspots.
Pretty Pixx poor project management frankly.
ACarneiro
Active Member
I REALLY think all this despair to get a “Smart” meter is making a rod for your own backs.
There is more and more talk of surge pricing for everything (roads, public transport and, wait for it.... electricity).
I still maintain that for the marginal gains over E7 you are risking a lot of being fleeced over a few years down the line.
Now get off my lawn!
There is more and more talk of surge pricing for everything (roads, public transport and, wait for it.... electricity).
I still maintain that for the marginal gains over E7 you are risking a lot of being fleeced over a few years down the line.
Now get off my lawn!
MrBadger
Badger out
I agree. However, down the line, they will probably make it very unattractive for those on current style tarrifs.
So part of me says stick, the other part says lets see what options are there and going smart metering makes more options available.
... and I get a free home isolation switch installed at the same time
and hopefully the ability to monitor my gas TOU.I used to think that way as well, but I suspect that you'll want to start locking in the longest term tariffs you can find as pretty soon you will start to see the E7 prices going up before too much longer and you won't have the ability to juggle your usage to avoid it.
Surge pricing isn't a bad thing when it is matched by lower prices outside of the peak periods (typically 4-7pm) and a little ability to adjust your usage.
Right now the figures I'm running suggest that with our usage pattern a wholesale price tracking tariff such as Octopus Agile would deliver slightly lower costs than even Octopus Go, but if I was charging my car every night Go would still have the edge.
jimbo_hippo
Member
With a recently fitted 6kW Solar PV and Powerwall, I think in the summer, I’ll be able to make some juggling work on Agile. Currently less than a month in with the Solar install and only have a LEAF (which will be our second car) until the Model 3 arrives this month. We’re already with Octopus on a fixed tariff, smart meter is in and waiting for switch. But this allows me to play with the Tesla App and push the peak/off peak around to see if it works knowing I’m pushing lucky around at a fixed price to understand it first. Interesting results so far. Worth pointing out that we’re a ‘work from home’ family so some sunny days means we can capitalise on the sun to charge cars and the Powerwall and then bridge the massive peak spikes on Agile. Possible the best combination of tech and circumstances to maximise our setup. Some cloudy North West days are showing that using grid to charge the Powerwall off peak instead of lots of solar daytime still gives some bonuses with Agile if you’re prepared to work with it.
Just got switched to Octopus (ahead of schedule and on a Sunday according to the email I just received?).
So now the dance begins to switch to get a smart meter and Go. Their account area now has a banner saying they are going to install more SMET2 smart meters soon and to register interest... good sign?
Either way what’s my best approach to get this done? Call Monday am and ask for meter and Go? I can be annoying so don’t mind phoning every day if needs be. I want my Tesla to charge for 1/3 the cost ASAP!!!
So now the dance begins to switch to get a smart meter and Go. Their account area now has a banner saying they are going to install more SMET2 smart meters soon and to register interest... good sign?
Either way what’s my best approach to get this done? Call Monday am and ask for meter and Go? I can be annoying so don’t mind phoning every day if needs be. I want my Tesla to charge for 1/3 the cost ASAP!!!
MrBadger
Badger out
I've been with Octopus over 3 years now, so existing customer. As has happened several times before, I was recently offered a smart meter but this time, after a bit of procrastination, I decided with technology and circumstances, now was the time to change.
On clicking the link from the sometime in Oct email, I found them fully booked to last week of the year, and no dates offered into the new year. So don't go expecting quick turn around.
I did however go back and check again a week or so later and found a couple of cancellation slots, so accepted. So worth trying again if install dates are not as close as you would like.
However, until I start home charging, I'm not going to switch tarrif until I know what my usage patterns are. For us, with solar and already being on Octopus, the 5p headline rate is offset by the big increase in daily standing charge and with the potential of offsetting charging from PV and other sources, its not such a clear cut decision.
On clicking the link from the sometime in Oct email, I found them fully booked to last week of the year, and no dates offered into the new year. So don't go expecting quick turn around.
I did however go back and check again a week or so later and found a couple of cancellation slots, so accepted. So worth trying again if install dates are not as close as you would like.
However, until I start home charging, I'm not going to switch tarrif until I know what my usage patterns are. For us, with solar and already being on Octopus, the 5p headline rate is offset by the big increase in daily standing charge and with the potential of offsetting charging from PV and other sources, its not such a clear cut decision.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I REALLY think all this despair to get a “Smart” meter is making a rod for your own backs.
There is more and more talk of surge pricing for everything (roads, public transport and, wait for it.... electricity).
I still maintain that for the marginal gains over E7 you are risking a lot of being fleeced over a few years down the line.
Now get off my lawn!
I agree wholeheartedly. The primary motive for rolling out smart meters is to transfer electricity price variation risk from the suppliers to consumers.
At the moment, suppliers buy wholesale electricity on the basis of a 24 hour buy ahead, 30 minute tariff slot, basis, via what amount to an auction. Suppliers have no way of knowing how much they will pay for, say, the 18:00 to 18:30 slot in a weeks time. In order to set tariffs for consumers, suppliers have to estimate what the mean wholesale cost of electricity is for the whole period of the consumer tariff, add on their operating cost and profit margin and then use that to set the tariff rates. The 30 minute slot price can vary very widely, as this OFGEM wholesale chart shows: Data portal
Once smart meters are rolled out, suppliers can switch from accepting the wholesale price risk to working on a cost-plus model, where consumers are charged the 30 minute wholesale price, plus supplier operating costs and profit. The suppliers no longer have any risk, and consumers just have to try and do what suppliers currently do, and guess ahead as to what their tariff is likely to be for any 30 minute slot during the following days. The meter has the capability to display the actual tariff that applies for any 30 minute slot period, but doesn't have a look-ahead capability, as there's no link back from the wholesale buy ahead system.
Suppliers are, quite understandably, offering attractive incentives to get people to accept smart meters. It's in the suppliers interest to have as many smart meters rolled out as possible. The question is, "will these attractive incentive tariff rates still be available once the majority have smart meters?". Frankly I doubt it. Once the suppliers have the majority of their customers on smart meters, they can just choose to remove any incentive tariff scheme they wish. There is no option to have a smart meter removed; once a customer has accepted one, then that is an irreversible decision. This means that eventually everyone with a smart meter will probably end up on variable rate 30 minute tariffs, with no way of knowing the price of any 30 minute slot more than 24 hours in advance (because the wholesale price doesn't get fixed until the end of the 24 hour buy ahead auction).
I've done the sums quite carefully for our supply, as our house is all-electric. The biggest problem I've found is the duration of any off-peak time slot. Octopus Go looks attractive on the surface, but ends up being more costly for us, as I can't get enough charge into either the car, or, more importantly, our house heating and hot water system, in just four hours. I can just about do this in seven hours, though, which makes a conventional E7 rate (in our case from Bulb) the best option at the moment. The same goes for the Agile tariff, I've been tracking the variable rate of this against our minute by minute electricity consumption, and for now Agile is more expensive (although not by a great deal).
My biggest concern remains what will happen to tariffs when we all have smart meters, and how will we be able to do simple things, like set the best periods to switch on heavy loads, if we are subject to prices that can change on the fly every 30 minutes?
*Adam
Member
That is certainly not the goal for the majority of suppliers. I see a goal of smart metering to ensure the grid has visibility over demand. At the moment NatGrid rely on the frequency to determine how much to supply to meet demand, this is somewhat inefficient and can be problematic.
The real push for some companies is the fact they own the asset, and with a meters lifespan lasting 15 years a MAP (meter asset provider) can return upwards of £1000 per meter for something that cost under £200 to supply and fit.
Suppliers don’t just purchase their consumption on the day ahead market. They can hedge out several different contracts, across years, months, quarters or days. They can even go as granular as blocks, and settlement periods for shaping. Purchasing is done on a best guess using coefficient of the customer base; smart meters help the suppliers better forecast demand of their customer base; which in turn prevents any volume going to imbalance where there is a lot of uncertainty and unpredictability.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I partially agree, and pricing and the way the buy-ahead market works is certainly hedged, but I can't help thinking that, once the majority of consumers can be billed on the same 30 minute slot basis as the suppliers use for purchasing, we will see 30 minute variable tariffs being applied. It has to be a really attractive option for a supplier, getting rid of all the price variability risk and passing it on to the consumer, far too attractive for suppliers to just ignore, IMHO.
... and once the majority of people are using those tariffs, there is little incentive to offer low prices on the old E7 and flat rate tariffs, so the grass will not be so green there either...
I'd rather have a tariff that tracks the wholesale prices and lets me move consumption accordingly than be stuck on an expensive E7 tariff that doesn't let me take any action to reduce the cost...
I coudn't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been said.
I have always scanned deals and price comparison sites. Best deal was EBICO Night Owl v1, 50p /day standing charge but free during E7 hours. I specified my actual usage before switching and since they recommended the product, I accepted their offer and made the switch. There turned out to be a hidden 40-60 max split for day:night use, but they honoured the tarif based on the estimated use I gave. So, where possible, always give your own estimated consumption figures rather than using theirs.
I looked at Octupus and other smart meter tarifs, and the SMETS1 / SMETS2 mess, and given my complex electricity set up I absolutely did not want nor would benefit from a smart meter. By chance, I stumbled across a comparison site that suggested an EDF tarrif around 17p day / 5p night 20p standing charge. It did not state smart meter required (although other sites had similar rates with EDF that did require one) and it came up as a suggestion based on having E7 meter. Long story short, having double, treble and quadruple checked with EDF, (2 months ago) I was told that actually I could opt out of having a smart meter with any of their tarrifs!
I have always scanned deals and price comparison sites. Best deal was EBICO Night Owl v1, 50p /day standing charge but free during E7 hours. I specified my actual usage before switching and since they recommended the product, I accepted their offer and made the switch. There turned out to be a hidden 40-60 max split for day:night use, but they honoured the tarif based on the estimated use I gave. So, where possible, always give your own estimated consumption figures rather than using theirs.
I looked at Octupus and other smart meter tarifs, and the SMETS1 / SMETS2 mess, and given my complex electricity set up I absolutely did not want nor would benefit from a smart meter. By chance, I stumbled across a comparison site that suggested an EDF tarrif around 17p day / 5p night 20p standing charge. It did not state smart meter required (although other sites had similar rates with EDF that did require one) and it came up as a suggestion based on having E7 meter. Long story short, having double, treble and quadruple checked with EDF, (2 months ago) I was told that actually I could opt out of having a smart meter with any of their tarrifs!
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Glan gluaisne
Active Member
Once it's cheaper to shift tariff, then I'm sure people will. Right now, if we were to shift to either the Go or Agile tariff, allowing for the maximum amount of load shifting we can manage, it's cheaper to be on E7 with Bulb. I do keep the spreadsheet regularly updated every month, just to check that prices are reasonable.
These things always keep changing, though, so like most I'll shift when a better deal comes along, but I will probably hang on a bit to try and minimise the risk of the supplier failing, if it's one of the smaller ones. My view is a bit coloured by our experience when Iresa folded though. Octopus took over and managed to seriously screw up our billing for months, causing us significant problems at the time. My thoughts at the time were that they just didn't have the capacity to deal with thousands of extra customers that were dumped on them. The big 6 have their their own issues, but it seems unlikely that any of them will suddenly fail. We had six energy companies fail in 2018, so it seems to me to be worth waiting a bit to see how things stabilise.
As our total electricity bill is only £48/month, including car charging and heating the house and hot water, if we do end up paying a few percent more for a time, whilst waiting to see if any other offer is better long term value, the cost is pretty small. If fact there is no "cost", as such, as we earn over £80 a month, on average from the electricity we generate, so as long as we don't end up paying that much for the electricity we buy there's no cost incurred, just a small loss of extra income.
I wonder if / when continued growth in wind / off-shore wind will skew the issue in a similar way to keeping gas & coal power plants running 24-7 produced surplus over night electricity.
The grid needs control devices (more sofisticated than SMETS2 I think) that will allow incentive tarifs with free electricity as long as you take energy when we tell you to. EG: If over 60% of your use is at times we dictate, then you get that energy at a much reduced rate. So for EV owners, you would benefit from leaving your car plugged in and available to charge whenever the supply company (actually dictated by energy generation volume) turned on vehicle charging.
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