UK FSD Discussion

[Tony Hoyle]

DCAS got passed (pending formal adoption, anyway), so it's down to individual countries legislation to adopt it.. Of course in the UK as soon as we do there will be some minister taking the credit.. 'tis the way it works. But it opens the way for a form of FSD beta.

 

[Buckminster]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1751675491071791435

 

[Bouba]

I don’t see the good news....first we are looking at over a year....and FSDb will be completely emasculated....

 

[Pink Duck]

I can’t see Tesla releasing FSD Beta to Europe with these constraints:

• FSD Beta would require training video before use in UN ECE countries
• Cannot be named FSD, or marketed as ‘self-driving’, due to L2 driver responsibility
• All manoeuvres must be driver-confirmed (without saying how) with 3 seconds notice
• On change of speed limit - haptic/audio feedback (can be permanently disabled by driver)
• Needs to be hands and eyes on to engage with intent to be eyes on only in September 2025
• 15 second nag down to every 5 seconds, every 10 seconds if visually engaged
• Lane change available on local roads (where pedestrians/cyclists permitted)
  • Except where towards a lane reserved for oncoming traffic!
• Lane crossing timeout increased from 5 to 7 seconds

 

[Bouba]

I can’t see Tesla releasing FSD Beta to Europe with these constraints.

I can’t see the point. But worse is the future....all systems from all manufacturers have to have the same system...now I’m sure that Tesla wouldn’t mind licensing FSD to everyone, but what are the odds that the EU will adopt a system from a German manufacturer ?

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Tesla don’t implement various features as well as the current regulations allow, just drive a different make of car with lane change or speed limit detection, so while extending the range of capabilities is good it still requires Tesla to tune the software to what the regulations allow. That may be harder than we imagine.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I can’t see the point. But worse is the future....all systems from all manufacturers have to have the same system...now I’m sure that Tesla wouldn’t mind licensing FSD to everyone, but what are the odds that the EU will adopt a system from a German manufacturer ?

I think a lot use Mobileye which is owned by Intel, Jaguar are doing a lot with Waymo (Google). I think Bosch has a system but this isn’t a EU v US battle.

 

[WllXM]

I can’t see Tesla releasing FSD Beta to Europe with these constraints:

• FSD Beta would require training video before use in UN ECE countries
• Cannot be named FSD, or marketed as ‘self-driving’, due to L2 driver responsibility
• All manoeuvres must be driver-confirmed (without saying how) with 3 seconds notice
• On change of speed limit - haptic/audio feedback (can be permanently disabled by driver)
• Needs to be hands and eyes on to engage with intent to be eyes on only in September 2025
• 15 second nag down to every 5 seconds, every 10 seconds if visually engaged
• Lane change available on local roads (where pedestrians/cyclists permitted)
  • Except where towards a lane reserved for oncoming traffic!
• Lane crossing timeout increased from 5 to 7 seconds

I don't see any of this being a dealbreaker, except for the 15s nag reduced to 5s!
How on earth can you justify that a supposedly more autonomous system would require even more user supervision than is currently the case??... it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Bouba]

The other thing is keeping your eyes glued to the road ahead…sometimes looking behind is the right thing to do

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I don't see any of this being a dealbreaker, except for the 15s nag reduced to 5s!
How on earth can you justify that a supposedly more autonomous system would require even more user supervision than is currently the case??... it just doesn't make sense.

If I was arguing a justification it would be a long the lines of any car on L2 requires driver supervision, and the more the car does the more complacent the driver will become. I think tbeees been plenty of evidence of this, people climbing into the passenger get seat or back of cars when there were no virtually no nags - they were too complacent. So the less the driver actually has to do in terms of physical driving or intervening, the more you need to do to ensure they’re ready and able to do so when required

 

[Durzel]

DCAS got passed (pending formal adoption, anyway), so it's down to individual countries legislation to adopt it.. Of course in the UK as soon as we do there will be some minister taking the credit.. 'tis the way it works. But it opens the way for a form of FSD beta.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1751675491071791435

Pretty annoying clickbait headline on both the video and Twitter, but is to be expected I suppose.

As is always the case the devil is in the detail, as @Pink Duck has highlighted.

This sounds about as gimped as you could imagine it could be. Feels like it would be entirely pointless to use, possibly even more annoying than just driving save for situations where it is already working, or at least slightly better than driving yourself (e.g. Navigate on Autopilot).

 

[goRt]

Can I have a button that says "ignore the regs, I'll take my chances" and get FSDb today

 

[WllXM]

If I was arguing a justification it would be a long the lines of any car on L2 requires driver supervision, and the more the car does the more complacent the driver will become. I think tbeees been plenty of evidence of this, people climbing into the passenger get seat or back of cars when there were no virtually no nags - they were too complacent. So the less the driver actually has to do in terms of physical driving or intervening, the more you need to do to ensure they’re ready and able to do so when required

Given all the nags that we keep getting when our hands are already on the wheel, with the botched torque controls in lieu of a capacitive wheel, at what point does it become LESS of a hassle to actually do the driving yourself rather than being nagged to wiggle the wheel every X secs while on AP?
I would say down to 5s would do it... We've come full circle..

 

[Durzel]

Can I have a button that says "ignore the regs, I'll take my chances" and get FSDb today

If you can root the car and code off "ece_restrictions" (and possibly "eu_vehicle") to "no", then yes.

Don't think you'd get offered FSD Beta though, on a car outside of the States, as presumably it's done by VINs. Who knows though.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Given all the nags that we keep getting when our hands are already on the wheel, with the botched torque controls in lieu of a capacitive wheel, at what point does it become LESS of a hassle to actually do the driving yourself rather than being nagged to wiggle the wheel every X secs while on AP?
I would say down to 5s would do it... We've come full circle..

I’m already there. If I use anything it’s just TACC. In part nags, although I dont seem to suffer those much, more I don’t find steering a burden and prefer to position the car on the road where I want rather than feel compromised in terms of view by where the car thinks it should drive

 

[Bouba]

The extra lane in the video for German emergency vehicles is interesting....in France we have that for motorcycles. Lane centering is surprisingly complex....for example I don’t drive in the center of the lane if I’m overtaking a big truck

 

[Fursty Ferret]

• All manoeuvres must be driver-confirmed (without saying how) with 3 seconds notice

This delay is why the existing lane change is awful. I would love to see the people that insisted on this delay take a drive where they have to wait three seconds after flicking the indicator on before making any lane change or manoeuvre. Of course, if they don’t finish within another 3 seconds, they have to swerve back into the original lane regardless of approaching traffic or risk. After, them’s the rules and they wrote them.

 

[Durzel]

This delay is why the existing lane change is awful. I would love to see the people that insisted on this delay take a drive where they have to wait three seconds after flicking the indicator on before making any lane change or manoeuvre. Of course, if they don’t finish within another 3 seconds, they have to swerve back into the original lane regardless of approaching traffic or risk. After, them’s the rules and they wrote them.

That's a different thing. The current regs mandate that a lane change has to be completed within 5 seconds:

Annex 8, Paragraph 3.5.1.2., amend to read:
“3.5.1.2. The requirements of the test are fulfilled if:

...

(g) The lane change manoeuver is completed in less than 5 seconds for M1,
N1 vehicle categories and less than 10 s for M2, M3, N2, N3 vehicle categories

Additionally the delay between lane change "procedure" (presumably the notification of intent) and the lane change "manoeuvre" starting must NOT be less than 3 seconds, and not more than 15 seconds.

On the one hand in 20+ (?) years time or whatever when cars are expected to be driving themselves fully the notion that they all drive basically like they're on a driving test is not wholly unreasonable. It probably isn't what people are imagining self driving will be in the future, though. I would guess most people will think the cars will drive themselves "with purpose".

EDIT: Scratch what I said. You're right, and talking about the same thing. I dumb.

 

[goRt]

If you can root the car and code off "ece_restrictions" (and possibly "eu_vehicle") to "no", then yes.

Don't think you'd get offered FSD Beta though, on a car outside of the States, as presumably it's done by VINs. Who knows though.

Green indicates that hacking is relatively simple (less than 400 bucks and some time)

 

[Durzel]

Green indicates that hacking is relatively simple (less than 400 bucks and some time)

Yup. Don't think everything can be changed though.

if my car were out of warranty I'd be very interested in coding UNECE restrictions off the car, or at least trying to see how it behaves when those settings aren't turned on.