Universal Mobile Connector (UMC) in Australia

[cafz]

Anyone bought 32A 3 pin tails?

Yes, I have the 32A 3-pin tail, and installed the matching socket (in fact that exact IP66 Schneider Electric socket that @OzTzlaBloke posted a photo of) at a single-phase holiday house. Works well.

If I ever wanted to go remote where the 5-pin sockets lie, I'd probably get a 5-pin to 3-pin 32A cable made up for me, that would also let me get to sockets that are a little way from the parking spot.

 

[moa999]

If you ever go remote, better joining TOCA, and borrowing their travel kits which would give you the full 11kW off those regional sockets (and not stress the phases on the generators so much)

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

cafz I begrudgingly got myself a type 2 cable extension three phase 22kw in 10 meters over doing extensions at the other end with tails and so on. At my cottage if I want to charge in certain locations while moving other vehicles around etc it just becomes necessary. I figured since Im obliged for certain situations getting extended at the type 2 end was more universal than solving needing longer cabling where I might have different portable EVSE's different plugs different tails etc. For AC charging Ill always use type 2 mennekes.

Guess too if Im feeling rambunctious to an ICER I can always now park em in and chill while charging

 

[SL666]

I don't understand how a 5 pin socket for single phase would work - two of the pins not hooked up?

I've seen some weird and wonderful wiring in data centres of weird specific purposes - but that's pretty out there.

 

[Rolond]

- two of the pins not hooked up?

Yes

 

[JonDarian]

cafz I begrudgingly got myself a type 2 cable extension three phase 22kw in 10 meters over doing extensions at the other end with tails and so on. At my cottage if I want to charge in certain locations while moving other vehicles around etc it just becomes necessary. I figured since Im obliged for certain situations getting extended at the type 2 end was more universal than solving needing longer cabling where I might have different portable EVSE's different plugs different tails etc. For AC charging Ill always use type 2 mennekes.

Guess too if Im feeling rambunctious to an ICER I can always now park em in and chill while charging

I don't think I understand this. Are you plugging an EVSE (and it's relevant tail) into the appropriate power socket, then running the Mennekes from the car-end of the EVSE to the car?

 

[[Zombie]]

running the Mennekes from the car-end of the EVSE to the car?

You can't use a standard type2-type2 (Mennekes) cable as an extension lead. The pins are (deliberately) too short.
This is because the cable has a resistor inside that tells the car the maximum rating of the cable, so you can't draw 32A from a 32A charging station with a 20A rated cable.

I know some websites sell an "extension lead" that doesn't have the resistor and has a modified plug design so that it will work as an extension, but at your own risk.

My EVSE has extension leads that fit between the tail and the EVSE itself, so I can use them with any tail including the type2 "input" tail.

 

[JonDarian]

You can't use a standard type2-type2 (Mennekes) cable as an extension lead. The pins are (deliberately) too short.
This is because the cable has a resistor inside that tells the car the maximum rating of the cable, so you can't draw 32A from a 32A charging station with a 20A rated cable.

I know some websites sell an "extension lead" that doesn't have the resistor and has a modified plug design so that it will work as an extension, but at your own risk.

My EVSE has extension leads that fit between the tail and the EVSE itself, so I can use them with any tail including the type2 "input" tail.

Thanks. I didn't think the Mennekes could just work as an extension lead.

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

I don't think I understand this. Are you plugging an EVSE (and it's relevant tail) into the appropriate power socket, then running the Mennekes from the car-end of the EVSE to the car?

Gday Jon. If we look at the sequence in a portable EVSE for AC charging its: Tail into portable EVSE into Type 2 mennekes Tesla port. I wont always be using my UMC Tesla Gen 2 as the only portable EVSE. Then another variable is it makes no sense to carry extensions specific to a given tail plug. Like, why carry a 10A extension then a 15A extension then a 20A 3 phase extension then a 32A 3 phase extension then a 32A single phase extension etcetc

Then even if I did all that, in cases where I'm at say IKEA which has an untethered type 2 mennekes I'd be using my type 2 to type 2 cable. If an ICER blocks me, I then despite having all those extensions above I still have zero ability to extend the type 2 cable length in this specific scenario

So. The way to resolve all that in one swoop in one extension cable is simply to solve the issue at the type 2 end of the AC charging chain. With a 10m 22KW 3 phase type 2 extension cable I can *CONTINOUSLY* run whatever power the Tesla needs right up to the porsche which takes 22KW not limited like the Tesla 3/Y to 11KW AC. So no dramas with extension cords not being continously rated as is 99% the case for 10A Aus and 15A Aus stuff. And no DIY with no meeting AS/NZ standards by hacking big gauge cables up yourself. Its no risk.

That covers trolling the ICER by parking in. It covers the cant reach the 15A outlet at the caravan park. It covers cant reach the 3 phase 32A socket at the showground etcetc. And it covers the main issue I have which is at my cottage in some cases I need extension if I choose to charge outdoors on the long driveway and Im doing other things with other cars meanwhile.

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

modified plug design so that it will work as an extension, but at your own risk.

Mennekes was originally a German spec thing. Provided the cable is 400V 32A continous and it uses mennekes compliant plugs/sockets then it meets all the standards for both the original german spec and as well the later IEC 62196 spec. There is no user risk. Remember if this were a problem, the whole system wouldnt work as the plug/socket combination has to obviously be safe. Forget about any extension, in the original standard the BEV has to be able to accept the plug/socket - meaning the car is doing the same thing that an the extension cable is doing in another context. Mennekes standard plugs / socks are well, standard. The only thing needed to produce then a cable, is using cabling that meets the standard + those standard plugs/sockets.

This isnt like a controlled licensing thing where only Mennekes can manufacture the plug/socket. Its now an IEC Standard.

The only issue that would breach the standard would be some sort of home made job / dodgy seller which wasnt compliant to the max spec 400V 32A yet used the connectors of the mennekes standard while at the sametime not having any internal smarts to the cable to support the standard. In such a case most portable EVSE's have some smarts to determine things arent ok with current and heat etc. For example my 32A 3 pin single phase to Gen 2 UMC tail has a chip in it to keep those smarts happening despite being a non Tesla tail for the UMC. People have found the current can be auto derated in some poor site locations and dont know why - till they realise its the smarts knowing things arent too robust at crusty old Farmer Joes outback bodgy wiring place.

 

[[Zombie]]

The only issue that would breach the standard would be some sort of home made job / dodgy seller which wasnt compliant to the max spec 400V 32A

32A isn't the max spec for Mennekes / type 2.

Some charging stations (eg the ones RAC installed in WA in 2015) can supply up to 63A per phase on their type 2 connectors
some cars (like the BYD e6 taxis that were imported and recently sold off cheaply) can draw that much, and would melt your cable.

I'm sure you won't let that happen and I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just saying there's a reason why normal type2-type2 cables are expressly designed so they can't be used as extension cables or daisy chained together.

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

Im with ya buddy - I get what your saying both your intent and your facts Im thankful

The way this is usually "solved" in Euro style stuff is take commando sockets right. Blue Euro folk know thats 32A lower AC volt stuff. Red, that tells them its over 60A at higher voltages etcetc. What Ill do is:

1. Get a hold of the German spec and then the IEC spec in full : my current understanding clearly isnt complete if the standard supports over 32A and as well I thought there was no BEV with an AC invertor capable of more than 22KW AC charging, my own Tesla is limited to 11KW AC
2. I believe but will confirm 100%, that the product Im using has the chip in it to tell the rest of the systems it attaches to that its compliant up to 22KW. While I know that "when you dont have the chip" like some ol farmer in outback played with his machinery shed wiring type situation that other parts of the system will still figure out and try to help - like how my 5pin 32A 3 phase to UMC Gen2 tail will auto detect that bodgy farm stuff and start derating for safety in bodgy locations. While I know theres some help - its just better and safer to have the same chip in the extension as well and not be relying elsewhere. So Ill confirm what the story is about this product in full detail.

 

[[Zombie]]

I thought there was no BEV with an AC invertor capable of more than 22KW AC charging

There was a variant of the Renault Zoe with 63A (45kW) charging, but we only got the 22kW version in Australia.

Instead of a separate inverter the Zoe uses the drivetrain as part of the charging circuit - they call it Chameleon charging.

Clever, but not the most efficient at lower amps which is probably why we only got the 22kW

I haven't seen confirmation of the AC charging speed of the handful of e6 Taxis in Australia but all the specs I've seen for that model say they can do 40kW

I believe but will confirm 100%, that the product Im using has the chip in it to tell the rest of the systems it attaches to that its compliant up to 22KW

It uses a resistor between the proximity pin (PP) and earth (PE) to tell the car the current limit.

It's unlikely any of the "type 2 extension cables" for sale would have a resistor inside because the resistor values will be added to the one inside the type2 cable you're extending and you'll get lower throughput.

1500 Ω resistor – 13A cable
680 Ω resistor – 20A cable
220 Ω resistor – 32A cable
100 Ω resistor – 63A cable

But honestly, you'll be fine - just don't use it to charge any strange EVs.

Side note, the very early Tesla Model S could only charge at 16A per phase, so on an unmodified single phase charging station they were limited to 3.8kW

The Gen1 Tesla wall connector and the Gen1 mobile connector's blue adapter (32A single phase) would work around this by connecting that single phase to all three phases on the Tesla side. The Tesla will then draw ~ 10.6 Amps on each pin, which add up to 32A at the charging station.

But if you plug one of those non-standard devices into a Renault Zoe it will try to draw 32A on each phase, and everyone has a bad day.

So really just a word of warning to be wary when you're doing something that wasn't expected to be possible by the designers of the standards.

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

OK, got my head around this more thanks Zombie

A simple test - when all the cables all arrive. Ill measure the resistance of every possible combination. It should be the case then that Id never use more than 22KW regardless of if a lady friend witlessly plugged it in or whatever even for the strangest combinations. Having 22KW gear max it should have the signalling to not exceed that automatically without any thought from the operator. Its easily measured to find out once it all arrives in the mail to confirm it. I have the standard now theres multiple versions of it. Its always been the lowest common denominator though for what ampacity it can pass continous in every version of the standard. Easy to test Ill report back once it arrives.

Once thats confirmed, it wont matter that these ultra fringe cases are so bizzare, itll just work without any requirement from a human. Its certainly a better approach compared to the ridiculousness of carrying five different extension cords if its done at the tail end and I dont want to be locked into a specific type of portable EVSE either.

 

[Vostok]

There seem to be a lot of edge cases here… with the proliferation of both DC and AC public chargers, the need to fill the car with bespoke charging cables, adaptors and options is becoming less and less necessary.

I have a 10 metre 10A (but 15A-rated) extension lead for my UMC as my sole backup for plugging in when everything else fails (ICEing, tail can’t fit the receptacle, don’t have the right plug for the available sockets etc). In 4 years of Tesla driving, I’ve never needed anything different, because you can always find a 10A outlet somewhere

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

I agree Vostok. Its not ideal mate. For large city people its not necessary thankfully.

Given though my use case involves rural/remote stuff and particularly given Farmer Joes propensity for ultra dodgy machinery shed wiring Im forced to deal with rare edge cases. Moreover I want whatever "system" I have to be entirely independent of any human thought or education on behalf of the operator for safety.

Using a retail extension cord off the shelf from say bunnings for domestic 10A and 15A applications is a really bad idea.

Do the maths mate. It certaintly isnt AS/NZ compliant on cable length runs for continous current at 15A. Those so called 15A extension cords are not rated continous. As far as I have seen when researching all this topics, there is no retail extension cord adaquete for the task meeting continous ampacity to the AS/NZ code. Youd have to custom make one using diameter copper wire meeting the AS/NZ codes for continous use on the cable run. Do the maths on 10A continous with the so called 15AMP wire diameter found in extension cords at bunnings etcetc. Bunnings dont sell anything off the shelf thats safe.

Using retail 15A and 10A extensions on domestic plugs thats guaranteed to give problems in 10A and 15A use cases. Tesla derated both to 8A and 12A and currently it isnt possible to firmware upgrade the UMC to not derate it. Many people assumed they were getting the full when they are not in the Tesla UMC.

The other problem, what do you when you need a 32A 5 pin 3 phase extension as is common in remote areas?

then what do you do when you are at an untethered type 2 station and cant reach that?

What do you do when in a remote area at night in the rain and theres only a 20A 5 pin 3 phase socket at the showground with no 32A 5 pin 3 phase socket anywhere at all and you cant reach their 20A socket either?

"Solving" carrying 5 extension cords around for different situations by using a portable EVSE with say a single 22KW 3 phase extender in between the tail and the EVSE, well problem one your now tied to that portable EVSE and if it fails in a remote area your forced to have the same backup. It also still leaves the problem of how to extend on untethered type 2 charging stations that wont reach the charge port.

a type 2 extension is the only way to cover all possible extension needs in one extension

The type 2 extension cord using more than 22KW is so so so theoretical and fringe Im struggling to figure out how to test it to show that situation. There is no EVSE portable sold capable of more than 22KW AC so all those portable EVSEs will be setup to instruct the systems not to use more than 22KW, There is zero concern there. It cant ever exceed 22KW in that use case.

Raking my brain really hard on how the hell this could ever be tested of using more than 22KW in an type 2 extension cord situation the test would have to involve:

a) Goto WA to find one of these bizzare type 2 AC charging stations capable of throwing more than 22KW AC via type 2 IEC 62196. Any other situation has no concern at all.
b) Somehow amongst every BEV ever sold, find the unicorn vehicle capable of more than 22KW which is apparently the unicorn that is a Renault Zoe
c) Then test. As much as I respect Zombies facts and helpful insight here, I dont agree with this theoretical conclusion that this most bizzarre combination would in fact result in a concern. Hes making assumptions on the test result. Im still waiting on the cable extension to arrive but for the sake of argument if has no smart chip in it, it has no resistance signalling and so on which I think is highly highly unlikely but lets just assume for the sake of it before it arrives at my house it is indeed that way. Well what zombie isnt considering is this WA charging unit on type 2 capable of 45KW. I now have the specifications for IEC type 2 and there is multiple versions of the spec. There is detail about two areas in particular: temperature sensor and ampacity sensor. So its highly highly highly likely that his bizzare 45KW type charger in WA, even if the most simple home made type 2 extension ever was used with no chip in it and no resistance and no anything but type 2 standard plugs/sockets and 22kw cabling, its highly highly highly likely the overall system will derate to 22KW anyway. Its something Id actually really like to test. Whos in WA? With a Renault Zoe lol

Anyway if it turns out the type 2 extension I have has the chip in it or other mechanisms, then this ultra fringe case is solved that way without any WA testing needed.

There is no other solution that doesnt involve 5+ extension cords, which for 10A and 15A would have to be custom made theyre unavailable in retail, and then your still stuck on untethered type 2 cases when needing an extension there.

 

[[Zombie]]

"Solving" carrying 5 extension cords around for different situations by using a portable EVSE with say a single 22KW 3 phase extender in between the tail and the EVSE, well problem one your now tied to that portable EVSE and if it fails in a remote area your forced to have the same backup.

Which is why I also carry a gen 1 UMC with 10A/20A/32A tails as a "backup"
Not ideal because it doesn't have the "reach" but can be useful in an emergency.

It also still leaves the problem of how to extend on untethered type 2 charging stations that wont reach the charge port.

I have a type2 "input" tail for that. So it goes type2 -> 15m of extension leads -> Juice Booster 2 -> type2 -> car for over 20m of reach.
It saves carrying yet another long cable.

As much as I respect Zombies facts and helpful insight here, I dont agree with this theoretical conclusion that this most bizzarre combination would in fact result in a concern.

Thanks! I don't think it's a concern either. I'm just here to try and present the facts.

even if the most simple home made type 2 extension ever was used with no chip in it and no resistance and no anything but type 2 standard plugs/sockets and 22kw cabling, its highly highly highly likely the overall system will derate to 22KW anyway. Its something Id actually really like to test. Whos in WA? With a Renault Zoe lol

As I said the Australian delivered Zoe only does 22kW. You need the top level European spec to do 43kW

A BYD e6 might do 40kW, but as I said that's unconfirmed.

But all those early RAC stations have been replaced by now, and there's probably no incentive to install such high powered AC stations anymore.

Which means you're absolutely right that your 22kW extension lead is unlikely to cause you any problems.

And I should probably stop being so pedantic on the internet

 

[OzTzlaBloke]

Mmmm yeah mate I *really* like that juice booster v2 product. I just love the way it can do type 2 to type 2 as well as the portable EVSE stuff plus it auto adjusts for everything in a great auto way. Super super slick

 

[cafz]

It's unlikely any of the "type 2 extension cables" for sale would have a resistor inside because the resistor values will be added to the one inside the type2 cable you're extending and you'll get lower throughput.

It's worse than that. The resistors would be in parallel, so the resulting resistance would be less than either of the single ones, and you'd get higher throughput. Two 32A cables in series like that would present 110 ohms to the charger.

Probably the Type 2 extension does not include the resistor at all, relying on it being capable of at least whatever the other cable in use is.

I can't imagine those >22kW cables were very popular anyway, they must have cost a bomb, been quite heavy and unweildy and of very limited use.

 

[[Zombie]]

Super super slick

Super tough too!

Probably the Type 2 extension does not include the resistor at all, relying on it being capable of at least whatever the other cable in use is.

Yes that's my assumption too.