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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,705
8,047
Seattle area, WA
I paid for FSD. If they ever get to the point of offering something that even resembles FSD and that capability requires hardware my car lacks, Tesla owes me a free upgrade to deliver what I paid for. Simple as that. Not sure how you're conflating that with buying a smartphone and insisting that the phone get free hardware upgrades each year.
Now imagine how people who paid for it in 2016 feel, especially that the 2016 version of FSD was advertised to be way more capable than the 2019+ (IIRC march 2019 is when Tesla neutered FSD description and moved a bunch of features from EAP to FSD so they can claim FSD does anything at all).
 
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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,705
8,047
Seattle area, WA
Tesla specifically advertised all cars as FSD capable, and FSD as a capability you could purchase post-delivery, so it doesn't even matter if you paid for FSD already (although it's irrelevant until you go and buy FSD).
Yep, key word is "capable". That is what people paid for who are not used to Tesla marketing lingo. It doesn't mean it will ever actually self drive. Want to see my 691hp capable P85D (which Tesla eventually admitted was limited by the battery, including a safety fuse, to 463hp max)? At least for FSD there always was small print saying it may not come during the expected life of the car.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
At least for FSD there always was small print saying it may not come during the expected life of the car.
Source?
Only "disclaimer" I know of is that FSD availability is subject to software validation and regulatory approval. (what regulator? Nobody knows..... There isn't one in the USA that pre-approves autonomous cars.) But they never talked about timeline at all or expected vehicle lifetimes.
 

GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
I paid for FSD. If they ever get to the point of offering something that even resembles FSD and that capability requires hardware my car lacks, Tesla owes me a free upgrade to deliver what I paid for. Simple as that. Not sure how you're conflating that with buying a smartphone and insisting that the phone get free hardware upgrades each year.
I'm not conflating anything.

You can buy FSD right now for $10,000.00. I think it was $8K before that and might go to $14K. Whatever it is you have right now that you paid for? I think Tesla calls that "FSD." It might not be "Autosteer" on the city streets, but if you can buy the FSD option, then you have FSD.

In other words, FSD is a marketing term. You have it now. Is your FSD going to be as good or as feature rich as FSD in 2023? Probably not because that will require hardware your car doesn't have.

Not even trying to be provocative with this. Seems like common sense.

And I completely understand why people would be upset.
 
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GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
Yep, key word is "capable". That is what people paid for who are not used to Tesla marketing lingo. It doesn't mean it will ever actually self drive. Want to see my 691hp capable P85D (which Tesla eventually admitted was limited by the battery, including a safety fuse, to 463hp max)? At least for FSD there always was small print saying it may not come during the expected life of the car.
Yes, exactly. FSD is a marketing term.
 

GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
Tesla, since 2016:


Tesla has said nothing except their cars WILL be able to do FSD. It's them advertising it's possible on the car you buy today (or in 2016), not people assuming or wanting future updates.

At this point though, they haven't even shipped FSD at all... So they need to release it before we can even argue about when they will stop supporting it.
Define FSD for me and show where Tesla promised those specific features for the life of your car.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
Define FSD for me and show where Tesla promised those specific features for the life of your car.
We're talking October, 2016 here. The Tesla website said until 2019:

Full Self-Driving Capability​

Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

And remember- in 2016-2019, Tesla had EAP and FSD. They took people's money for FSD. If FSD is not a guarantee to deliver some functionality, then it's an invalid contract. It's an investment, not a contract if there's no guarantees or performance required, and we know how Tesla feels about the SEC...

The above description is the only one Tesla gave for what FSD is (that, and the video on the same web page showing the car doing exactly this). So in the absence of specific language stating that the car may never achieve this, the assumption is that it will.

Yep, if you bought since April 2019, it's different. If you bought October 2016-April 2019, what they described as FSD is pretty clear cut.
 
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GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
All cars are FSD capable. I paid for FSD features (for whenever released) at time of delivery.
This makes sense and I think is a valid point. If your car was sold to you as FSD capable, you should get FSD.

Can we agree though that your FSD probably won't be the same as whatever Tesla calls "FSD" in say, 2025? Or 2023?

At some point, older models will be left behind because of newer hardware advances that simply can't be retrofit on a car 5 years older (or however many years older).

I have to say I'm getting discouraged from purchasing the FSD option. I figured I would take delivery and then see how it goes, but there is a lot of consternation from those who took the plunge. $10,000.00 is a lot of scratch (1/4 price of the M3SR) and it seems everyone is incredibly unhappy with it.
 

AMPd

Active Member
Nov 27, 2012
4,602
4,161
Northern California
I'm not conflating anything.

You can buy FSD right now for $10,000.00. I think it was $8K before that and might go to $14K. Whatever it is you have right now that you paid for? I think Tesla calls that "FSD." It might not be "Autosteer" on the city streets, but if you can buy the FSD option, then you have FSD.

In other words, FSD is a marketing term. You have it now. Is your FSD going to be as good or as feature rich as FSD in 2023? Probably not because that will require hardware your car doesn't have.

Not even trying to be provocative with this. Seems like common sense.

And I completely understand why people would be upset.
Autopilot was a marketing term, FSD is not and no, no one has it. FSD is full self driving, and not a single Tesla out there can fully drive itself from point A to point B so Tesla hasn’t delivered what people paid for and for many they never will.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
At some point, older models will be left behind because of newer hardware advances that simply can't be retrofit on a car 5 years older (or however many years older).
As long as they do all of this below, then that's fine. If they don't, and need a HW upgrade to do it, that's on Tesla. They shouldn't have made this statement unless they were sure. Nobody forced them to put it on their website and upload a video of the car driving itself with a statement that the driver is only there for legal reasons. They did it because they knew it would sell cars and benefit them, but now they have to make it right.

Let's stop worrying about what happens once they have FSD, and if newer hardware is needed to make "better" FSD. They promised FSD on these cars. They defined features and performance. They have delivered on none of that after 1,700 days.

Meanwhile, they have removed radar which took away smart summon, the closest thing we had to any of this....

All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.


Full Self-Driving Capability​

Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.
 
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GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
Autopilot was a marketing term, FSD is not and no, no one has it. FSD is full self driving, and not a single Tesla out there can fully drive itself from point A to point B so Tesla hasn’t delivered what people paid for and for many they never will.
This is educational for me as a new owner.

If I spend the $10,000.00, I go from Autopilot to what they call "Full Self Driving." That is the name of the package and product or at least the upgrade path for $10K. They advertise auto steer on city streets as coming "later this year." That is clearly a feature promised.

So what I get for $10,000.00 is not "full self driving" but is more advanced than Autopilot, correct?

I mean, I'm clearly getting a moderately more advanced version with additional features.

Are the extra features called "Autopilot Plus" or is just like "partial FSD?"
 

AMPd

Active Member
Nov 27, 2012
4,602
4,161
Northern California
This is educational for me as a new owner.

If I spend the $10,000.00, I go from Autopilot to what they call "Full Self Driving." That is the name of the package and product or at least the upgrade path for $10K. They advertise auto steer on city streets as coming "later this year." That is clearly a feature promised.

So what I get for $10,000.00 is not "full self driving" but is more advanced than Autopilot, correct?

I mean, I'm clearly getting a moderately more advanced version with additional features.

Are the extra features called "Autopilot Plus" or is just like "partial FSD?"
For 10k you basically get a pinkie promise that one day you’ll have FSD. Tesla is selling full self driving, a feature unavailable now but will be maybe available at a later date. So if you just go off that then Tesla will owe you any and all hardware upgrades necessary to make that happen whenever they can.

The current full self driving option is not sold as a partial feature where you’ll have to pay more later for more features and that’s straight from the ceo who said that with this option your vehicle would be able to go out there and drive itself making you money. Although his word is worth as much as a Zimbabwe dollar.
 

GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
For 10k you basically get a pinkie promise that one day you’ll have FSD. Tesla is selling full self driving, a feature unavailable now but will be maybe available at a later date. So if you just go off that then Tesla will owe you any and all hardware upgrades necessary to make that happen whenever they can.

The current full self driving option is not sold as a partial feature where you’ll have to pay more later for more features and that’s straight from the ceo who said that with this option your vehicle would be able to go out there and drive itself making you money. Although his word is worth as much as a Zimbabwe dollar.
"So if you just go off that then Tesla will owe you any and all hardware upgrades necessary to make that happen whenever they can."

I suspect the possibility of this happening to be zero. If they do it, I will eat my hat. Obviously, I would want that, especially for $10,000.00 large, but I cannot see them retrofitting...period, whether free or charge.

This is part of the reason I am on the fence over the purchase of FSD. I also think the subscription service (if that ends up being real, anyway) might change the expectations or the very least upset the apple cart a bit.

Weird time. I find it unhelpful to have major announcements to existing hardware and software be handed down via Tweets and then a press release on the website. A proper Apple-like WWDC or Google I/O keynote laying out the plans would be best, I think.
 

AMPd

Active Member
Nov 27, 2012
4,602
4,161
Northern California
"So if you just go off that then Tesla will owe you any and all hardware upgrades necessary to make that happen whenever they can."

I suspect the possibility of this happening to be zero. If they do it, I will eat my hat. Obviously, I would want that, especially for $10,000.00 large, but I cannot see them retrofitting...period, whether free or charge.

This is part of the reason I am on the fence over the purchase of FSD. I also think the subscription service (if that ends up being real, anyway) might change the expectations or the very least upset the apple cart a bit.

Weird time. I find it unhelpful to have major announcements to existing hardware and software be handed down via Tweets and then a press release on the website. A proper Apple-like WWDC or Google I/O keynote laying out the plans would be best, I think.
Oh I would absolutely not purchase it, I can’t believe there are people who are still buying that option. I guess the fear that it will increase in price could drive someone to buy FSD but for me, I just can’t see myself paying 10k for something that might come in the future.
Especially since I don’t keep cars too long.
 

GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
56
37
Chicago
Oh I would absolutely not purchase it, I can’t believe there are people who are still buying that option. I guess the fear that it will increase in price could drive someone to buy FSD but for me, I just can’t see myself paying 10k for something that might come in the future.
Especially since I don’t keep cars too long.
Rumor is it is going to $14,000.00.

The regular AP is really nice. It's great on the highway and in traffic.

I will probably stick with this and maybe just dip my toe in the FSD water if a subscription option is made available.
 

vapor trail

Member
Sep 9, 2015
249
240
Roseville, CA
There's a recent thread on here floating around talking about just how far "FSD" really is. Think decades - if ever. Everyone who works in tech knows the reality.
Yeah, count me as a dope that drank the Kool-Aid. 🤦‍♂️

Oh well, maybe I'll get some more useful features out of it. I'm keeping the car until it dies a slow death. At least I didn't pay $10k. Model S configuration page is still stating autosteer on city streets will be released later this year. I'm not holding my breath.
 

Randy Spencer

Active Member
Mar 31, 2016
3,608
3,649
Alameda, CA
Not sure I would count FSD out considering that there is Google getting approval from regulators to use their Self Driving in SF, which is the jurisdiction where most Teslas live. We are looking at our own cars and watching it cross into oncoming traffic and saying "Well this will never learn" but OUR software isn't the 4D software, and those who are running it talk of how different it is from the AutoPilot engine that is driving the bulk of the Teslas now. I am sure my opinion will change in a few weeks we we start getting the 4D engine under the hood, but for now I am hopeful.
 

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