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dannycamps

Member
Apr 8, 2019
703
635
Northeast USA
I don't understand. You seem to think that the car can do something a human can't. Any driver hitting TULE fog immediately slows down, but as long as they're moving there's a chance they'll plow into the car in front. We just drive on, hoping the car ahead will drive on too. Stopping in the road almost guarantees you'll be rear-ended. These are all situations where a human is going to risk everything just as much as a car on autopilot will. Humans don't have radar, yet they've been navigating through these scenarios for years, vision only.

I don't think the issue is the actual vision. I would argue that with the number of cameras available, a Tesla can "see" a lot more than humans can. The challenge is how to properly interpret what is being seen and how to react accordingly to it. Sometimes we as drivers just know or feel how to reach to something as you correctly pointed out.

Until true AI exists (and I don't mean a calculated probability of events based on past events), we will not be able to reach fully autonomous driving.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,741
1,958
Orange County, CA
Seems Tesla would need some kind of microphone to be able to detect nearby emergency vehicle presence - like at an intersection with a green for the Tesla and approaching ambulance on a cross-street running Code 3. How does Waymo do this? LIDAR won't help.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,268
1,793
The Woodlands, TX
put tape over it. problem solved.

Presumably FSD will not work with tape over the camera. Maybe not even cruise control. That would be quite a step backwards...

I don't care if FSD doesn't work without the camera. But if Tesla requires the camera for AP, I'm selling the car immediately, on principle.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,268
1,793
The Woodlands, TX
I'm ok with fsd not working without a camera, as long as the user declines the wheel-tug-as-alive option. (if there is a button that tesla gives for this, I really hope they do...)

but don't degrade what we have now, for those that are ok with how the level 2 tesla works, today. its why I bought the car. not for the promise of anything more than l2 and not for fsd. its for the assists that it gives and it does it really really well.

I want to keep what I have. let the others pass me by, with whizz bang Driver-Face-Emotion-And-Intention ID(tm) and I'll enjoy the part-human, part-machine assist that we have right now. just give us a choice and it will really keep both camps happy. no reason not to.

Yup. When I bought my Model 3, it said camera wasn't active and might be needed for future features. My car came with Autopilot, so not a future feature.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,936
2,520
Seattle, WA
Seems Tesla would need some kind of microphone to be able to detect nearby emergency vehicle presence - like at an intersection with a green for the Tesla and approaching ambulance on a cross-street running Code 3. How does Waymo do this? LIDAR won't help.
First principles- Deaf people are allowed to drive cars, right? Emergency vehicles are not supposed to enter intersections based on the idea that someone heard them.
The real question is if you can make that work easier/faster/more reliably than using a microphone.
 
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blackhawk

Member
Sep 30, 2015
103
118
USA
I only hope that Telsa provides needed hardware updates for all of us who drank the kool-aid and funded this fantasy-ware, to keep our cars updated with the newest production fleet.

You already know what the answer to this wish is. Tesla will do nothing. Elon has already dug himself into the mother of all holes with his long term FSD fantasy.
 

jsmay311

Active Member
Apr 22, 2016
1,142
1,667
Chicago suburbs
The car doesn't work for crap if you turn off data sharing. With it off you lose maps, traffic and other stuff.
That sounds patently wrong. But correct me with a quote from a Tesla manual.

I think the confusion here is stemming from the fact that there are 3 different types of data sharing (at least in 3/Y's.... I suppose it would only be 2 types in S/X's that lack cabin cameras):

1. Diagnostic and usage data. (This one includes external camera clips)
2. Cabin Camera Analytics. (This one includes internal camera clips during "safety events")
3. Road segment data. (This one is required to enable certain vehicle features.)

And Tesla gives owners the option of enabling or disabling each of those 3 separately.

The "road segment data" is the one that has to be turned on to enable real-time traffic nav routing and other features. (Based on the verbiage in the vehicle settings screen, I think this also includes Autopilot and Summon, but I haven't tried these to confirm.)

But you can turn off the cabin camera data sharing without affecting any other vehicle functions.

(Here are photos showing descriptions of the different data sharing types in the settings menu of a 3/Y.)
A3A874AD-AA41-4CFB-A442-0FF105E56D18.jpeg


A92B14AE-14C7-4295-ACA0-13EC129F49BB.jpeg
 
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2101Guy

Active Member
Jan 6, 2020
1,786
1,825
USA
I don't care if FSD doesn't work without the camera. But if Tesla requires the camera for AP, I'm selling the car immediately, on principle.
Just curious. Is it due to how Tesla has handled this? Or that you are against any/all camera/vision based systems (like Cadillac's Supercruise) that are used to confirm driver attentiveness?
 
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Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,268
1,793
The Woodlands, TX
Just curious. Is it due to how Tesla has handled this? Or that you are against any/all camera/vision based systems (like Cadillac's Supercruise) that are used to confirm driver attentiveness?

Both.

However, Cadillac and BMW (and Ford) do not use a vision camera for driver monitoring. They use IR eye tracking camera. To me, and maybe I'm incorrect, but that seems way less invasive. From what I understand, IR tracking merely is looking for your pupils. Not recording your entire cabin.

I know, I'm fighting the uphill battle here. They already know how many people are in the car, how heavy they are, where I go and when. But...it just seems like too much to me. And the fact that they would possibly retroactively require it for a feature they claimed it would never be used for would REALLY piss me off. If that happens. We will see.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,741
1,958
Orange County, CA
I think the confusion here is stemming from the fact that there are 3 different types of data sharing (at least in 3/Y's.... I suppose it would only be 2 types in S/X's that lack cabin cameras):

1. Diagnostic and usage data. (This one includes external camera clips)
2. Cabin Camera Analytics. (This one includes internal camera clips during "safety events")
3. Road segment data. (This one is required to enable certain vehicle features.)

And Tesla gives owners the option of enabling or disabling each of those 3 separately.

The "road segment data" is the one that has to be turned on to enable real-time traffic nav routing and other features. (Based on the verbiage in the vehicle settings screen, I think this also includes Autopilot and Summon, but I haven't tried these to confirm.)

But you can turn off the cabin camera data sharing without affecting any other vehicle functions.

(Here are photos showing descriptions of the different data sharing types in the settings menu of a 3/Y.)
View attachment 668449

View attachment 668450
So the original post claiming if you shut "data sharing off" you get no traffic updates is at most partially true, and affects the uber-paranoid who believe the car sending what is simply positional data is being used to spy on you. There was just one "share data" option the last time I looked at it (long long ago), and I don't believe at that time it was granular. Re traffic, nav and routing, if you think about it, none of those could possibly work if mothership didn't know where you were to send back traffic data and alert you to Superchargers ahead that are out of service.
 
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captjoemcd

Member
Nov 29, 2019
257
287
California
know, I'm fighting the uphill battle here. They already know how many people are in the car, how heavy they are, where I go and when. But...it just seems like too much to me. And the fact that they would possibly retroactively require it for a feature they claimed it would never be used for would REALLY piss me off. If that happens. We will see.
rule #1: there’s always an asshole. Is isn’t Tesla’s fault, it’s assholes like this.




 

2101Guy

Active Member
Jan 6, 2020
1,786
1,825
USA
did Elon say robotaxi service will be something that current hardware can handle? If so, if the robotaxi service encounters fog, what happens?
 

GlockWorkOrnge

'21 Model 3 Standard Range + White on White
May 18, 2021
51
29
Chicago
If camera was used in any way for FSD capabilities, those of us who paid for the feature should get retrofit without charge.

David Cary -- your post is spot on.
Has Tesla stated they will guarantee FSD functionality for a certain period of time?

I ask, because computer and smartphone makers have been doing this for years.

And they never take back your old device to add new hardware features---you buy the latest and greatest, it gets old, there is a new latest and greatest, features lost, features gained, (i.e., headphone jack, lack of removable storage, lack of removable battery, lack of ability to upgrade RAM, etc., etc.),

I think the most we can reasonably expect is for the features we got when we bought the car to remain "as is" for the life of the vehicle. If we miss out on new features and new hardware, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that's life.

The flip side to that coin is newer isn't always better. I don't have a radar in my M3 and I have hobbled features--who knows if those features when be unhobbled? FSD might even be worse on a newer vehicle.

Bottom line---if I was concerned about buying a car and getting outpaced by hardware and feature enhancements years later, I would not have gone with Tesla.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,936
2,520
Seattle, WA
Has Tesla stated they will guarantee FSD functionality for a certain period of time?
Tesla, since 2016:
All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.

Tesla has said nothing except their cars WILL be able to do FSD. It's them advertising it's possible on the car you buy today (or in 2016), not people assuming or wanting future updates.

At this point though, they haven't even shipped FSD at all... So they need to release it before we can even argue about when they will stop supporting it.
 

vapor trail

Member
Sep 9, 2015
237
221
Roseville, CA
Has Tesla stated they will guarantee FSD functionality for a certain period of time?

I ask, because computer and smartphone makers have been doing this for years.

And they never take back your old device to add new hardware features---you buy the latest and greatest, it gets old, there is a new latest and greatest, features lost, features gained, (i.e., headphone jack, lack of removable storage, lack of removable battery, lack of ability to upgrade RAM, etc., etc.),

I think the most we can reasonably expect is for the features we got when we bought the car to remain "as is" for the life of the vehicle. If we miss out on new features and new hardware, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that's life.

The flip side to that coin is newer isn't always better. I don't have a radar in my M3 and I have hobbled features--who knows if those features when be unhobbled? FSD might even be worse on a newer vehicle.

Bottom line---if I was concerned about buying a car and getting outpaced by hardware and feature enhancements years later, I would not have gone with Tesla.
I paid for FSD. If they ever get to the point of offering something that even resembles FSD and that capability requires hardware my car lacks, Tesla owes me a free upgrade to deliver what I paid for. Simple as that. Not sure how you're conflating that with buying a smartphone and insisting that the phone get free hardware upgrades each year.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,936
2,520
Seattle, WA
I paid for FSD. If they ever get to the point of offering something that even resembles FSD and that capability requires hardware my car lacks, Tesla owes me a free upgrade to deliver what I paid for.
Tesla specifically advertised all cars as FSD capable, and FSD as a capability you could purchase post-delivery, so it doesn't even matter if you paid for FSD already (although it's irrelevant until you go and buy FSD).
 

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