[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[hamoneaster]

Correction: this 2.5m house is listed under his wife's name. They both own another 1m house 2 blocks from this residence.

Wow...yall really tryna stalk this dead man??

 

[DaveG_NJ]

Too much fake and unprofessional "journalism" on this subject. Autopilot can't be made to accelerate like what was done, doesn't activate in my cars without painted lines, doesn't activate in my car if out of the seat, drives super slow to the point I usually help it get up to speed, can't go more than 5 over in this 35 mph zone, won't navigate a sharp turn at high speed, and the list goes on. The Fire Department has stated that the 4 hours and 30000+ gallons is a false statement. The police department should retract their statement and build in a hefty budget for making false statements about Autopilot and the fire that could be perceived as defamation. Even a 1% drop in Tesla stock would bankrupt the entire county/city likely. News outlets should be held accountable for poor reporting other than writing a footnote retraction, but we primarily have tabloids and reality TV news, not actual journalism any more. That's not to say some aren't doing amazing work. The new industry as a whole, however, looks like grocery store checkout trash.

This accident in my opinion was the result of:

1. Bad choices. Trying to accelerate too quickly and losing control the doctor slammed his car into a tree. Alcohol may have been involved in a "hold my beer and watch this moment." After wrecking, the driver couldn't get out of the car from the front door due to damage or the 12v failed. He then climbed into the back. Again due to damage or the 12 v system failing, and he didn't open the speaker panel to release the door manually due to injury, lack of knowledge, and/or time being short. This is likely what happened.
2. Another person was driving and did get out. It happens. They might have been intoxicated and feared manslaughter or homicide charges. They are roaming around with minor injuries as the cars are fairly safe. The other two were injured and just didn't make it out.
3. Idiocy and hacking. The doctor found some ridiculous work around to bypass all Autopilot safety mechanisms to show off the feature as it was never intended. Search history on his computer and phone will likely show where he got this idea if so and would be evidence as to what lengths the driver took to bypass all safety measures. Autopilot was involved but only due to a person intentionally misusing the product to a degree that is reckless endangerment of the life of his passenger. This would take quite the work around (installing a pre-2019 autopilot software before some of the safety measures were put in place or having a third party hack and damage the autopilot to activate it in his car for free, bypassing the weight sensors, tricking the speed limit, uping the acceleration, etc.). If this is found to be true, the passenger's family should sue the driver's estate for this unsafe and deliberate act that resulted in his horrific and firey death.
4. Foul play. Someone killed these men by drugging them, loading them in the car, stepping on both pedals (two pedal alert shows and the car won't move), lodging a block of ice on the accelerator, and then letting off the brake. Car burns. Ice evaporates/sublimates. It may have been family, a disgruntled person, a psychopath, or a short seller. This is less likely than 1-3 but more likely than this being an Autopilot event as reported by the news.

Those of course are just theories. I will await proper investigation to determine the facts. Two people have died. Their family deserves to know the actual cause here. Yes, this is absolutely terrible, but Autopilot did not do this.

Of those scenarios, I'd vote for #1 as most likely. If it turns out the rear passenger was seatbelted in, then I'd go with #2.

Although if Gordon Johnson was seen in the Woodlands area buying a block of ICE and getting into an ID.4, I'd lean toward #4.

 

[alexgr]

I spoke to someone locally who is involved with the Township. They spoke to another representative of the Fire Department who confirmed what Palmer Buck said:

Fire was out quickly.

Car was doused for hours to contain flare ups and cool the smoldering wreckage.

Tesla was contacted to ask what to do with the wreckage of the battery from an environmental standpoint.

Thank you for information! It is interesting who twisted the story, the police or the news. I could understand Herman, but if that was the news media - it is a new low of journalistic integrity perhaps after John M. Broder.

 

[alexgr]

Of those scenarios, I'd vote for #1 as most likely. If it turns out the rear passenger was seatbelted in, then I'd go with #2.

Although if Gordon Johnson was seen in the Woodlands area buying a block of ICE and getting into an ID.4, I'd lean toward #4.

What's the emoji for "not even funny"

 

[qdeathstar]

Wow...yall really tryna stalk this dead man??

All in all, it’s better to stalk a dead man than one whom is still alive. Don’t ask me how I know.

 

[DaveG_NJ]

Consumer Reports just posted a video of how it could have been done (not an S, though)....

CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat

Amid speculation about the cause of a fatal crash in Texas, Consumer Reports put Tesla Autopilot to the test on our track without a driver behind the wheel. Our testing shows that a Tesla will drive with no one in the driver seat.

www.consumerreports.org

 

[MikeyC]

I feel like at this point, this thread has run its course and we just have to wait for the official report. I'd say the entire thread can be summed up as follows:

Constable (car was driving itself) prove it Elon (AP was not enabled)

I think it has been made clear that given the conditions and features of AP, it is not likely that AP was in use. That said, it is not impossible and we have not heard counter-evidence from officials on scene and we are not likely to until the investigation is completed. Ignoring statements from both the constable and Elon, Tesla owners are basically saying "I find the use of AP very unlikely: what's your proof"? Since we are not likely to get an answer to that until after the investigation is over, we're basically spinning our wheels.

Mike

 

[alexgr]

We are “advertising salespeople masquerading as truthtellers”.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1385111636810240002

 

[Needsdecaf]

Wow...yall really tryna stalk this dead man??

Seriously. This is so nonsensical and not even remotely related to anything.

These types of properties are often "purchased" by entities other than the owner for tax reasons. Many, many of the homes in these areas, even at prices half of what these cost, are owned by a corporation, trust, or LLC.

Also, many people buy houses to rent in this area. It's very common for someone to be renting a 5 bedroom house long term. I actually have one on my street: it's a 5,000 SF house rented by a couple in their 50's who have never owned. They like having the freedom but don't want to be in an apartment or condo. They rent a house 5-7 years, get bored and move neighborhoods.

Oh, and the house they are renting? It's owner is an LLC.

So this brings NOTHING to this discussion.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Consumer Reports just posted a video of how it could have been done (not an S, though)....

CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat

Amid speculation about the cause of a fatal crash in Texas, Consumer Reports put Tesla Autopilot to the test on our track without a driver behind the wheel. Our testing shows that a Tesla will drive with no one in the driver seat.

www.consumerreports.org

Couldn't have been done in this case as the road had no lane lines and AP would not have ever initiated. But enlightening (and scary) nonetheless. Tesla needs to up their game with regard to driver monitoring. I really do hope that this video forces them to.

 

[qdeathstar]

Consumer Reports just posted a video of how it could have been done (not an S, though)....

CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat

Amid speculation about the cause of a fatal crash in Texas, Consumer Reports put Tesla Autopilot to the test on our track without a driver behind the wheel. Our testing shows that a Tesla will drive with no one in the driver seat.

www.consumerreports.org

at no time did speeds exceed 30mph.. so not quite. All they showed was if you stuffed a circus on your car you’d get a show.

 

[qdeathstar]

Couldn't have been done in this case as the road had no lane lines and AP would not have ever initiated. But enlightening (and scary) nonetheless. Tesla needs to up their game with regard to driver monitoring. I really do hope that this video forces them to.

Why. Some people are assholes who will defeat any system. Can’t stop people like that.

 

[BooMan]

Too much fake and unprofessional "journalism" on this subject. Autopilot can't be made to accelerate like what was done, doesn't activate in my cars without painted lines, doesn't activate in my car if out of the seat, drives super slow to the point I usually help it get up to speed, can't go more than 5 over in this 35 mph zone, won't navigate a sharp turn at high speed, and the list goes on. The Fire Department has stated that the 4 hours and 30000+ gallons is a false statement. The police department should retract their statement and build in a hefty budget for making false statements about Autopilot and the fire that could be perceived as defamation. Even a 1% drop in Tesla stock would bankrupt the entire county/city likely. News outlets should be held accountable for poor reporting other than writing a footnote retraction, but we primarily have tabloids and reality TV news, not actual journalism any more. That's not to say some aren't doing amazing work. The new industry as a whole, however, looks like grocery store checkout trash.

This accident in my opinion was the result of:

1. Bad choices. Trying to accelerate too quickly and losing control the doctor slammed his car into a tree. Alcohol may have been involved in a "hold my beer and watch this moment." After wrecking, the driver couldn't get out of the car from the front door due to damage or the 12v failed. He then climbed into the back. Again due to damage or the 12 v system failing, and he didn't open the speaker panel to release the door manually due to injury, lack of knowledge, and/or time being short. This is likely what happened.
2. Another person was driving and did get out. It happens. They might have been intoxicated and feared manslaughter or homicide charges. They are roaming around with minor injuries as the cars are fairly safe. The other two were injured and just didn't make it out.
3. Idiocy and hacking. The doctor found some ridiculous work around to bypass all Autopilot safety mechanisms to show off the feature as it was never intended. Search history on his computer and phone will likely show where he got this idea if so and would be evidence as to what lengths the driver took to bypass all safety measures. Autopilot was involved but only due to a person intentionally misusing the product to a degree that is reckless endangerment of the life of his passenger. This would take quite the work around (installing a pre-2019 autopilot software before some of the safety measures were put in place or having a third party hack and damage the autopilot to activate it in his car for free, bypassing the weight sensors, tricking the speed limit, uping the acceleration, etc.). If this is found to be true, the passenger's family should sue the driver's estate for this unsafe and deliberate act that resulted in his horrific and firey death.
4. Foul play. Someone killed these men by drugging them, loading them in the car, stepping on both pedals (two pedal alert shows and the car won't move), lodging a block of ice on the accelerator, and then letting off the brake. Car burns. Ice evaporates/sublimates. It may have been family, a disgruntled person, a psychopath, or a short seller. This is less likely than 1-3 but more likely than this being an Autopilot event as reported by the news.

Those of course are just theories. I will await proper investigation to determine the facts. Two people have died. Their family deserves to know the actual cause here. Yes, this is absolutely terrible, but Autopilot did not do this.

I'll say again, but scenario #2 seems the least likeliest to me. Mysterious 3rd guy guy crashes car. Survives relatively unscathed. Opens his door. Gets out. CLOSES DOOR BEHIND HIM. Leaves scene with his buddies (or marks?) either unconscious and/or trapped in burning car (again he closed the door when he left because that's what people normally do in accidents.....LOL!). Last Mystery Driver walks away and disappears into the ether. Oh, yeah the eyewitnesses (believe them or no) lied to police when they said only the driver and passenger were in the car before the two left. Did Mystery driver somehow sneak into the car in the seconds before the crash? Was Mystery driver Batman or a Ninja or something? What was this Ninja doing in the area? Possible, but seems random.

I think #1 or #3 are most likely but I have as much a clue on this as every other layman at this stage.

And no, I'm not LOL'ing AT you. I mean it could have went down that way but seems...extremely unlikely when I think about it. But I guess all possibilities are in play at this point until we hear the definitive report.

 

[alexgr]

at no time did speeds exceed 30mph.. so not quite. All they showed was if you stuffed a circus on your car you’d get a show.

I wonder why wouldn't they try to trick similar systems in other cars, at least TACC? Ford, for example.

 

[MikeyC]

at no time did speeds exceed 30mph.. so not quite. All they showed was if you stuffed a circus on your car you’d get a show.

I agree they may need better monitoring of at least seat weight. But I wonder how many people realize the CR reports video is proof only that AP can be enabled on a street with marked lines with no one in the driver's seat. How that relates to the Texas crash is unclear at best due to conflicting conditions near the crash site: no marked lines, AP accelerates slowly, AP not able to be set more than 5 MPH over the speed limit, etc. You could just as easily set up lines on a test track that mark about 300 ft of straight road followed by a left curve similar to the curve of the crash road, then floor the accelerator on the straight stretch and try to keep inside the lane marks while turning left at the curve: showing that the Model S can't make the turn and drives off the right side of the lane just after 300 ft. Even if you subtract all the factors that make the AP unlikely, all you've done is prove that either scenario is possible. Beyond that, you need evidence.

Mike

 

[mongo]

Consumer Reports just posted a video of how it could have been done (not an S, though)....

CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat

Amid speculation about the cause of a fatal crash in Texas, Consumer Reports put Tesla Autopilot to the test on our track without a driver behind the wheel. Our testing shows that a Tesla will drive with no one in the driver seat.

www.consumerreports.org

As compared to any normal automatic transmission vehicle:
Open door
Stretch leg and place foot on brake
Reach in, start engine, and shift to any non-park gear (neutral bring the least interesting unless on a slope)
Remove yourself from vehicle and shut door (bonus points if you lock it first)

No weighted chain need. No need to stay in car. No attempt by the vehicle to stay in a lane.

 

[BrianBigNFun]

Consumer Reports-

As compared to any normal automatic transmission vehicle:
Open door
Stretch leg and place foot on brake
Reach in, start engine, and shift to any non-park gear (neutral bring the least interesting unless on a slope)
Remove yourself from vehicle and shut door (bonus points if you lock it first)

No weighted chain need. No need to stay in car. No attempt by the vehicle to stay in a lane.

dont forget to tie your belt on the steering wheel and secure it to the gear shift so it stays straight

 

[alexgr]

Consumer Reports just posted a video of how it could have been done (not an S, though)....

CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat

Amid speculation about the cause of a fatal crash in Texas, Consumer Reports put Tesla Autopilot to the test on our track without a driver behind the wheel. Our testing shows that a Tesla will drive with no one in the driver seat.

www.consumerreports.org

OMG! Does it mean that if my car allows me to get out of the window and ride on the roof smoking pot and drinking vodka it is an unsafe car!?!?!

 

[qdeathstar]

Guys. All sorts of products have saftey devices that can be over ridden if you try hard enough. The pressure relief valve and thermostats on your hot water heater can easily be disabled turning the tank into a missile.

No one is suggesting hot water heater manufacturers need “Up there game” to install cameras on their hot water heaters to make sure no one messes with them.

 

[MikeyC]

OMG! Does it mean that if my car allows me to get out of the window and ride on the roof smoking pot and drinking vodka it is an unsafe car!?!?!

Remember the old "ghost driving" videos from years ago? That's exactly what they were doing! Unfortunately sometimes when you do stupid things, you get stupid results. Abusing a system by circumventing safety features ends up being the same thing as generic excessive speed/loss of control: driver error.

Mike