[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[Tam]

Tesla worked hard to make a car.
Apple worked hard to make a cell phone.
Google worked hard to make their search engine and Gmail.
Your doctor worked hard in medical school.

Does that give them the right to disclose your address, social security number, date of birth, and the fact that you searched "can you get an STD from a goat" and then spent 67 minutes at the local VD clinic on March 23rd?

That doesn't negate the fact that Tesla has consistently pinpointed a particular car to a particular victim to explain to the public what happened.

An example is the Mountain View, CA 2017 Model X vs. concrete median divider.

Tesla was able to pinpoint to the whole world the date, the time, the Autopilot status, the Follow Distance setting, the status of visual and audio alerts, steering wheel status, and the seconds for unobstructed view prior to the collision target.

It recently (like yesterday) also trashed the Tesla Driver in China to the whole world with the car log that he was overspeeding causing the accident.

It's nice to know the theory of we are so well protected by Tesla's privacy policy but what counts is Tesla owns it and discloses it however it likes as it has demonstrated both in the past and present.

 

[ev_go123]

We know AP can be tricked relatively easily to operate without a a hand on the wheel and without an occupant in the driver seat. The remaining questions were how AP could have operated on this residential road, and how it could have reached a sufficient speed over such a relatively short distance to have caused a deadly crash.

Well, I think this video resolves those issues....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1383917552762384386

Musk says there are no records of the AP being engaged, but that could very easily be a simple matter of the crash occurring and disabling the modem before it could send the data to Tesla servers.

So really the only important unknown at this point is the state of the seatbelts found at the crash site. IF the driver seatbelt was found at the crash site to be engaged, that essentially PROVES that these gentlemen were using the car in a very stupid manner. And we now have pretty good evidence to indicate that the simplest explanation is that AP (and these men’s stupid use thereof) caused this crash.

Said another way, we now know that it was possible for AP to cause the crash, so this is the simplest explanation IF the driver seatbelt is shown to have been engaged at the crash site.

Hmm something interesting here. The distance from where Sergio started AP to when it finished is around 600 ft (see graphic below), and yet his AP only gets up to around 32 mph (maybe a bit higher, it goes out of view for the last few seconds). In the Texas crash, AP would have had even less distance to accelerate (400-500 ft). I can't imagine 32 mph, or even say a optimistic 40 mph would've caused that nasty of an accident.

Notes/caveats: AP may accelerate differently depending on conditions/different roads/etc, but can't imagine it that big of a difference. Also Sergio had FSD while the Tesla that crash did not, maybe that would make acceleration more timid? Also it seemed Sergio had AP's set point higher than his current speed for the entire length of road, so AP's acceleration should never have been limited.

Sergio's path and link to google maps:

 

[Maxpilot]

Because he’s not an idiot. It has already been well established that weight isn’t needed in the front seat - only engaging the seatbelt and tricking the wheel. Not only did he somewhat disprove the line requirement, he demonstrated AP’s ability to attach grossly inflated speed limits to a clearly residential street.

That speed limit sign you see is called speed assist and allows you to turn on a warning if you exceed that speed. The speed the car will resume to when TACC is engaged is the set speed within the circle. I noticed Sergio had his speed set for 55mph at one spot in his video. If he engages TACC, his car will accelerate to 55mph.

 

[MikeyC]

I feel like at this point, we should all just agree that setting AP on the road in question is at least a remote possibility and should be considered, along with a lot of other scenarios. We can bat around what is more/less likely but the investigators will do that and they'll have a lot more info than we do.

Mike

 

[Iain]

If Sergio went to the same street and managed to turn on his autopilot he would be onto something. Going to a road that has a clearly marked center line and pretending you are on Alan Turings code breaking team is just silly.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Teslas are already in the area of 10 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE car. How much safer do they need to be? 20 times safer...50....1000? At some point it's just better to stay at home.
But stay out of the shower!

The average ice car example is a 12 years old vehicle with few safety features and a less safe driving demographic. Put 500k teenagers behind the wheel and those fire numbers change drastically.
Less likely to catch fire? Sure. 10 times less likely? No.

 

[Soda Popinski]

whats weird is that Im almost positive the car (2017 S) started flashing at me/stopped/went into park the other day when I was in reverse in my driveway, lifted up off of the seat/removed my body weigh from my seat to get my wallet out of my backpocket

I believe it only does that when the car is either stopped or going slow. I recall issues with people in carwashes with their Model 3 (gasp!), accidentally going to Park from Neutral when they lifted their butts.

 

[CyberGus]

But I do agree that a seat weight sensor and other reasonable precautions are a good idea. But where does it stop? How many safeguards are enough to prevent people from doing stupid things? If it looks like they might be trying to circumvent some of them, should it automatically call the suicide prevention hotline?

 

[EVNow]

Not only did he somewhat disprove the line requirement

We have been talking about this for years now.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tracking-fsd-feature-complete.154035/page-5#post-3819525

I tried this today on an unmarked long stretch. It kind of works.

NN picks up the center lane based on different shades of asphalt on the road (which usually happens because the road is laid in two parts). The lanes are not stable, as you can imagine. It didn't seem to stop nor go around parked cars to the side (I intervened - so can't be 100% sure on this). There was no oncoming traffic, but I guess it would have handled it fine.

What Tesla needs to do is to recognize it as an unmarked road - so stay on the right side of the road - and handle parked cars and oncoming traffic, all without the imaginary center line.

 

[CyberGus]

 

[flar]

Just a note on the text quoted above about the data collected by an EDR being property of the owner...

There are a lot of qualifications in that text - "required to be installed ... under [DOT] regulations" for example.

It comes from a time when the government was first considering requiring EDRs on all cars. The concern was that people would reject the law because the government shouldn't be spying on you that way. The Act was passed to reassure people that the government wasn't going to use that data in any but a few ways.

It's basically "don't worry, if Uncle Sam requires that your vehicle includes an EDR that meets government standards, we are going to let you safeguard the data that we are forcing your car to collect by that mandated EDR".

Even with those restrictions, the act allows for data to be turned over if "an owner or lessee consents to such retrieval for any purpose". So, it is quite within the bounds of that law for an owner to consent for the car manufacturer to retrieve that data even if it is from a government mandated EDR.

Tesla isn't really under the same restrictions for any data that they collect outside of an officially mandated EDR. They are especially allowed to have you opt in to them using the data for their own purposes. (or, at least they aren't "disallowed" from doing so by that particular Act)

 

[CyberGus]

 

[qdeathstar]

whats weird is that Im almost positive the car (2017 S) started flashing at me/stopped/went into park the other day when I was in reverse in my driveway, lifted up off of the seat/removed my body weigh from my seat to get my

I just feel like these RV manufactures need to do more. Their should be a interlock on the tea kettle.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I feel like at this point, we should all just agree that setting AP on the road in question is at least a remote possibility and should be considered, along with a lot of other scenarios. We can bat around what is more/less likely but the investigators will do that and they'll have a lot more info than we do.

Mike

It's a remote possibility, but its pretty far down yet is the first thing every media article brings up.

I would list the likelihood as the following

1.) A high speed crash, and the driver simply slid over in an attempt to get out of the vehicle
2.) A high speed crash, and the driver went into the back seat to escape
3.) Someone else was driving
4.) The two people were actually killed before, and the killer stuck them in the car and set it up to crash to make it look like an autonomous crash
5.) They inadvertently activated TACC, and didn't realize it was TACC. This is pretty low on the probability list because of the lack of speed that could have been gained. But, maybe it hit something just right.
6.) That Elon was mistaken when he said the car didn't have FSD. The car did have FSD, and this allowed autopilot to be activated on a road without lanes such as the one that the accident happened on.
7.) Some kind of SW glitch allowed TACC/AP/Smart Summons to rocket at maximum acceleration into the trees.

1-3 happens all the time, and no one goes "no one was driving the car" when there isn't anyone in the drivers seats. The problem with the car footage is we don't know what it looks like the second after the accident. We only know what it looks like after the fire, and after whatever the fire department did. I find it a little odd that no one came running from the sound of the crash.

 

[JHCCAZ]

...Even with those restrictions, the act allows for data to be turned over if "an owner or lessee consents to such retrieval for any purpose". So, it is quite within the bounds of that law for an owner to consent for the car manufacturer to retrieve that data even if it is from a government mandated EDR....

And for perspective, isn't it typically the case that "owner consent" comes in the form of some 'Agree and Continue' button upon installation and/or first use?

The fact is that most people (including myself and, I suspect, the majority of otherwise thoughtful users here) just don't have the bandwidth to read, research and decide on the EULA and/or Data Usage terms.

Combine this with the fact that in many cases Disagreement summarily terminates your permission to install and activate the product you just purchased, and perhaps disconnects you from the entire (Apple, Android, Microsoft, Facebook, Tesla...) ecosystem - this is why many people are unhappy with data-collection mandates.

It's really an extension of the age-old Fine-Print trickery. Opt-in or Opt-out kind of loses its distincion when there is no realistic use-case outside of the officially supported opt(ion). And the best way to make sure of the desired outcome is to 'explain' it so thoroughly to the customer that he just surrenders - Agree and Continue (next page->) or Exit Installation.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The two people were actually killed before, and the killer stuck them in the car and set it up to crash to make it look like an autonomous crash

Umm...I'd put this one at the bottom of your list in terms of likelihood, given the location and circumstances. Or maybe just remove it from the list.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Umm...I'd put this one at the bottom of your list in terms of likelihood, given the location and circumstances. Or maybe just remove it from the list.

I'd agree, but the older generation here can relate to it as a very typical plot-line from the old Columbo series. One imagines Peter Falk bumbling around the high-class neighborhood in his dumpy trench coat, tilting and scratching his head at all the Autopilot techno-babble, and annoying the reporters & government investigators with his slow-thinking questions. Disrespected by all concerned but finally and irrefutably linking tiny bits of overlooked evidence to solve the seemingly impenetrable mystery.

However, that's Hollywood and this is reality, even if one we don't yet understand. We do have to remember that there are two real-life families, of probably very fine character, who have lost their fathers/husbands in a horrible accident. Not far away and forgettable but only steps from their homes. So without ruling anything out, I think it's proper to put various nefarious and non-evidence-based theories (murder, manslaughter and flight, suicide pact) extremely low on the probability chart.

 

[EVNow]

6.) That Elon was mistaken when he said the car didn't have FSD. The car did have FSD, and this allowed autopilot to be activated on a road without lanes such as the one that the accident happened on.

Having or not having FSD will not make a difference here - unless they were on FSD Beta.

 

[mrElbe]

I'd agree, but the older generation here can relate to it as a very typical plot-line from the old Columbo series. One imagines Peter Falk bumbling around the high-class neighborhood in his dumpy trench coat, tilting and scratching his head at all the Autopilot techno-babble, and annoying the reporters & government investigators with his slow-thinking questions. Disrespected by all concerned but finally and irrefutably linking tiny bits of overlooked evidence to solve the seemingly impenetrable mystery.

However, that's Hollywood and this is reality, even if one we don't yet understand. We do have to remember that there are two real-life families, of probably very fine character, who have lost their fathers/husbands in a horrible accident. Not far away and forgettable but only steps from their homes. So without ruling anything out, I think it's proper to put various nefarious and non-evidence-based theories (murder, manslaughter and flight, suicide pact) extremely low on the probability chart.

I'll wait a few years until this is on "Forensic Files"

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Having or not having FSD will not make a difference here - unless they were on FSD Beta.

I don’t think we have clarity on this just yet.

One group of people claim that an FSD equipped vehicle can have AP activated on roads without lines such as the one where the accident happened, and a basic AP only vehicle won. Where they’ve tested both an FSD equipped vehicle and a non-FSD equipped vehicle.

Another group of people claim the activation is the same regardless of whether the vehicle has FSD.

there is no clarity from Tesla on what the truth is. Obviously we know that it’s possible to activate AP on some roads without lines as we have video evidence.