[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[qdeathstar]

The language has to be consistent with regulations - otherwise the law wins.

I suspect they can't release any individually identifiable information except when legally requested by authorities.

Elon already did that....

They will still have to comply with any other policies / contracts they have with us (remember all the pages we signed without reading ?) - as well as regulations like GDPR.

I have zero clue as to how Tesla works - but in most tech companies - internally one would establish policies that would comply with the strictest regulation on privacy (usually GDPR). In my current (unnamed) company and my previous company (Microsoft) we spent enormous amount of resources / energy making sure the privacy regulations and policies are complied with.

 

[EVNow]

Elon already did that....

At the time the individual was not known

Yes - I suspect a violation of the policy - unless there are specific exceptions around crashes (NTSB regulations ?).

ps : I should say in this particular case - since the individual is deceased, it gets more complicated.

 

[PJFW8]

Consumer Reports should test a Dodge Hellcat by taping a brick to the accelerator then jumping out. This is as meaningful as their Tesla methodology.

 

[FordMME]

We know AP can be tricked relatively easily to operate without a a hand on the wheel and without an occupant in the driver seat. The remaining questions were how AP could have operated on this residential road, and how it could have reached a sufficient speed over such a relatively short distance to have caused a deadly crash.

Well, I think this video resolves those issues....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1383917552762384386

Musk says there are no records of the AP being engaged, but that could very easily be a simple matter of the crash occurring and disabling the modem before it could send the data to Tesla servers.

So really the only important unknown at this point is the state of the seatbelts found at the crash site. IF the driver seatbelt was found at the crash site to be engaged, that essentially PROVES that these gentlemen were using the car in a very stupid manner. And we now have pretty good evidence to indicate that the simplest explanation is that AP (and these men’s stupid use thereof) caused this crash.

Said another way, we now know that it was possible for AP to cause the crash, so this is the simplest explanation IF the driver seatbelt is shown to have been engaged at the crash site.

 

[SMAlset]

We know AP can be tricked relatively easily to operate without a a hand on the wheel and without an occupant in the driver seat. The remaining questions were how AP could have operated on this residential road, and how it could have reached a sufficient speed over such a relatively short distance to have caused a deadly crash.

Well, I think this video resolves those issues....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1383917552762384386

Musk says there are no records of the AP being engaged, but that could very easily be a simple matter of the crash occurring and disabling the modem before it could send the data to Tesla servers.

So really the only important unknown at this point is the state of the seatbelts found at the crash site. IF the driver seatbelt was found at the crash site to be engaged, that essentially PROVES that these gentlemen were using the car in a very stupid manner. And we now have pretty good evidence to indicate that the simplest explanation is that AP (and these men’s stupid use thereof) caused this crash.

Said another way, we now know that it was possible for AP to cause the crash, so this is the simplest explanation IF the driver seatbelt is shown to have been engaged at the crash site.

This was discussed many posts ago when brought up initially. Perhaps a review of owner comments about his post before restarting the same discussion.

 

[FordMME]

This was discussed many posts ago when brought up initially. Perhaps a review of owner comments about his post before restarting the same discussion.

Right. I’ll take Sergio’s word to the bank. He is a highly knowledgable Tesla enthusiast. It was possible for AP to cause this crash, pretty easily as it turns out.

 

[Silicon Desert]

It tracks. We don't know how well.

I hate the required steering wheel jiggle. I'm hoping for a better option.

Hmmm, I guess we drive a bit differently. Just came back from a 200+ mile interstate trip and I don't remember needing to jiggle the steering wheel. I just rest my hand at about the 7 O'clock position.

 

[JHCCAZ]

...We give a certain level of trust/responsibility to drivers when they drive cars, if drivers want to abuse that trust/responsibility, they can easily kill themselves and others. Regardless of car types or if it has AP or not.

Exactly. It's actually far easier to abuse a traditional dumb car, or one with basic cruise control.

I say the following not as an unmitigated Tesla fan, but as one who is deeply interested in both the engineering and the societal impact of technological evolution:

It's clear that CR personnel think they've exposed some blatant irresponsibility on Tesla's part, but I think they've exposed their own blatant lack of critical thinking regarding product use vs. safety, including their own tendency for reflexive mistrust of new technology.

It is clearly and deeply inconsistent to fault Tesla for not building an impenetrable defense against a multi-pronged and purposeful plan to defeat safeguards, while continuing to rate and accept ordinary cars that present fewer safeguards all manner of opportunities to kill oneself and others. We can easily expand this point to kitchen knives, power and hand tools, numerous household chemicals etc. What about normally healthy foods, especially trendy super-organic no-preservatives foods than can silently spoil and transform into deadly poisons through simple inattention, not to mention deliberate experiment?

The real irony is that the distrusted technology here is actually the leading edge of a vastly safer world of driving. That is not to say that Tesla or others have no responsibilities to apply some safeguards considering the unfamiliarity of new features. However, a standard that requires them to anticipate and defend against anti-safeguard hacking is patently unreasonable, likely unachievable, and will only prevent or delay the arrival of a far safer era on our currently deadly roads.

 

[zecar]

Hmmm, I guess we drive a bit differently. Just came back from a 200+ mile interstate trip and I don't remember needing to jiggle the steering wheel. I just rest my hand at about the 7 O'clock position.

Well there is the difference. You are not trying to jiggle the steering wheel with a broom stick from the back seat.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Well there is the difference. You are not trying to jiggle the steering wheel with a broom stick from the back seat.

ha ha, good one. I will assume it is just a joke and you are not driving that way

 

[2101Guy]

whats weird is that Im almost positive the car (2017 S) started flashing at me/stopped/went into park the other day when I was in reverse in my driveway, lifted up off of the seat/removed my body weigh from my seat to get my wallet out of my backpocket

but a 2020 model doesnt require seat weight for the car to move?


Either way...enabling AP in any form and not being in full control? Recipe for potential disaster. When I go out and use my car, I and only I...am the responsible party/entity. AP, FSD. Doesnt matter. IM ACCOUNTABLE.

And simply put? Its not that hard to just...drive the car and use AP as the secondary mechanism. Primary is ALWAYS..me.

Life really isnt that hard..

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

relatives said they went for an Autopilot test drive.

Right, but I have no idea what that statement means (does anyone know what that means?). I assume the investigators know more about what that means now, based on witness statements and the evidence from the crash site. Or maybe they don't.

There's virtually zero public information about what happened prior to this accident. It's not even clear to me from the reporting which seats were occupied and by whom when the vehicle pulled away from the house (it's not clear what the witness meant in their statement, nor when their observation occurred). We'll find out eventually, possibly (if there was a witness to this).

whats weird is that Im almost positive the car (2017 S) started flashing at me/stopped/went into park the other day when I was in reverse in my driveway, lifted up off of the seat/removed my body weigh from my seat to get my wallet out of my backpocket

Did you have your seat belt on? There are a variety of safety checks on Teslas to prevent rollaway or accidents when exiting the car when it's left in drive or reverse by mistake (a pretty common error). I haven't bothered to check exactly how they work lately (I think they have changed over time), but my impression is that they are more sensitive now when you are in reverse, or when your proximity sensors are detecting a very close object. The three inputs from sensors are the door state, the seat belt state, and the seat weight sensor (and maybe proximity sensors as I said). I suspect if your seat belt is on the car is less likely to go into park even if it does not detect seat weight (but I'm not sure - it would require a lot of experimentation). The checks for these three items are probably also more sensitive when the car starts rolling forwards/backwards without accelerator input (which Tesla would be able to detect).

 

[EVNow]

Right. I’ll take Sergio’s word to the bank. He is a highly knowledgable Tesla enthusiast. It was possible for AP to cause this crash, pretty easily as it turns out.

You joined 2 months back. Look around here - no other public forum / platform beats TMC when it comes to Tesla info.

 

[2101Guy]

Right, but I have no idea what that statement means (does anyone know what that means?). I assume the investigators know more about what that means now, based on witness statements and the evidence from the crash site. Or maybe they don't.

There's virtually zero public information about what happened prior to this accident. It's not even clear to me from the reporting which seats were occupied and by whom when the vehicle pulled away from the house (it's not clear what the witness meant in their statement, nor when their observation occurred). We'll find out eventually, possibly (if there was a witness to this).


Did you have your seat belt on? There are a variety of safety checks on Teslas to prevent rollaway or accidents when exiting the car when it's left in drive or reverse by mistake (a pretty common error). I haven't bothered to check exactly how they work lately (I think they have changed over time), but my impression is that they are more sensitive now when you are in reverse, or when your proximity sensors are detecting a very close object. The three inputs from sensors are the door state, the seat belt state, and the seat weight sensor. I suspect if your seat belt is on the car is less likely to go into park even if it does not detect seat weight (but I'm not sure - it would require a lot of experimentation). The checks for these three items are probably also more sensitive when the car starts rolling forwards/backwards without accelerator input (which Tesla would be able to detect).

Im almost positive I undid my seatbelt before lifting up for the wallet grab.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Im almost positive I undid my seatbelt before lifting up for the wallet grab.

Yeah with the seat belt off, it doesn't take much for the car to just put it in Park. You can be sitting in the seat normally with the door closed and start reversing, and it'll sometimes just stick it in Park just to be safe. Happens all the time to me when moving my car out of the garage (when I'm not planning on going anywhere - seat belt automatically goes on otherwise). I just put on my seat belt now, which is probably the right call anyway.

 

[MikeyC]

Right. I’ll take Sergio’s word to the bank. He is a highly knowledgable Tesla enthusiast. It was possible for AP to cause this crash, pretty easily as it turns out.

He was knowledgeable enough to cherry pick the road and the conditions so that when he engaged AP, there was a clearly visible line in the center of the road. No, it wasn't a painted line but it was a line. So yes, you can in some situations engage AP when there are no painted lines as long as there is some sort of visible "seam" in the center of the street. That only proves that Elon's statement might need some "disclaimers", not that it is possible to engage AP on the road in question: most of the time it won't.

But I do agree that a seat weight sensor and other reasonable precautions are a good idea. But where does it stop? How many safeguards are enough to prevent people from doing stupid things? If it looks like they might be trying to circumvent some of them, should it automatically call the suicide prevention hotline? I'm only stating that because people need to look at AP for what it is: a driver assistance feature... and not a "get out of jail free" card. Before any of us enable it for the first time, we have to agree to use it responsibly. If you are trying to prevent 100% of people from driving irresponsibly: good luck with that!

Mike

 

[Dan D.]

Before any of us enable it for the first time, we have to agree to use it responsibly. If you are trying to prevent 100% of people from driving irresponsibly: good luck with that!

What about the second person? Yes, the responsible owner will fully train that person and ensure they have read the manual. Perhaps we'll tell the wife and kids not to use those things until we're sure they understand.

In fact I think I WAS told not to touch Cruise Control now that I think about it. At least as long as Dad was in the car and I was 16.

 

[Maxpilot]

Right. I’ll take Sergio’s word to the bank. He is a highly knowledgable Tesla enthusiast. It was possible for AP to cause this crash, pretty easily as it turns out.

Sergio was not in the back seat. He proved that he could engage TACC with Autosteer at a particular time and place on the road while sitting behind the wheel in the driver's seat. Autosteer is not to be used in the city. Autosteer on city streets has not come out yet except to the few that have the FSD beta. In any car I have owned that has cruise control, if I hit "resume" my car will accelerate to the cruise speed I had previously set. Sergio did not prove anything other than disprove Elon's comment about needing lines.

 

[FordMME]

How many of the posts in this verrrry long thread contain some element of “it’s not Tesla or the tech that’s to blame - it’s the people who use it irresponsibly”? Well that’s true. To an extent.

But I also think it is true that Tesla has encouraged some of this stupidity by promoting its driver assistance tech - named Autopilot and Full Self Driving - in a sometimes exaggerated manner, fine print disclaimers notwithstanding.

No, I’m not suggesting that Tesla is legally liable, but I don’t think Tesla’s hype can be ignored as a somewhat contributing factor. I think this article sets it out pretty well (and dispatches with some of the arguments advanced in this thread)....

Why We Write About Tesla Crashes

Over the weekend, there was a horrific crash in a Tesla Model S that claimed two lives, It took firefighters over four hours to extinguish the burning car. Significantly, crash investigators are certain that nobody was in the driver’s seat at the time of the crash; the bodies were found in the...

jalopnik.com

 

[FordMME]

Sergio was not in the back seat. He proved that he could engage TACC with Autosteer at a particular time and place on the road while sitting behind the wheel in the driver's seat. Autosteer is not to be used in the city. Autosteer on city streets has not come out yet except to the few that have the FSD beta. In any car I have owned that has cruise control, if I hit "resume" my car will accelerate to the cruise speed I had previously set. Sergio did not prove anything other than disprove Elon's comment about needing lines.

Because he’s not an idiot. It has already been well established that weight isn’t needed in the front seat - only engaging the seatbelt and tricking the wheel. Not only did he somewhat disprove the line requirement, he demonstrated AP’s ability to attach grossly inflated speed limits to a clearly residential street.