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Updated autopilot sucks!

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Why can't Tesla amend their driver-involvement detection like Cadillac's Super Cruise, where an in-car camera (like on Model 3) just watches your eyes?

Then NO MORE STEERING NAGS!

The majority of the Autopilot fleet doesn't have any interior cameras. The cars that do have a single fisheye in the center, with no IR illuminators. Accurately detecting driver eye position from that in all sorts of lighting conditions is a project of similar complexity to any of the AP neural net tasks I think.

Cadillac put a bunch of IR lights on the steering wheel on both sides of the bar that lights up, and a camera on the column right behind them. That makes the task much easier.
 
The majority of the Autopilot fleet doesn't have any interior cameras. The cars that do have a single fisheye in the center, with no IR illuminators. Accurately detecting driver eye position from that in all sorts of lighting conditions is a project of similar complexity to any of the AP neural net tasks I think.

Cadillac put a bunch of IR lights on the steering wheel on both sides of the bar that lights up, and a camera on the column right behind them. That makes the task much easier.

Thanks, appreciate the clarification on the needed equipment to make this come about.

But still, it could then monitor passive driver behavior rather than seeking specific hand/torque interaction with the steering wheel, especially when many here have already experienced that driving casually with hands on wheel still results in nags.
 
It's measuring the torque in real time, and apparently recording it in the black box. Tesla may not have programmed it to prompt when it sees a continuous torque from a defeat device yet.

To my understanding, a nag-prevention tool would not apply "constant" torque when driving, but vary it's torque a little based on the road unevenness which causes vertical acceleration on the tool and therefore variation on the torque on the steering wheel.
 
The majority of the Autopilot fleet doesn't have any interior cameras. The cars that do have a single fisheye in the center, with no IR illuminators. Accurately detecting driver eye position from that in all sorts of lighting conditions is a project of similar complexity to any of the AP neural net tasks I think.

So what is the actual point of that camera?
 
So what is the actual point of that camera?

That's a very good question. There's been a lot of speculation about that, and AFAIK, Tesla hasn't said a word.

One theory I've seen here a lot is that it's part of the ride sharing network program - a way to monitor the people you might be allowing in your car when you aren't there.

It could be part of a security system using motion sensing, and/or part of the upcoming "dash camera" recording firmware.

One wild thought that I hadn't heard that just occurred to me - they could use it and the external cameras and facial recognition to register owners/authorized users and respond to them without any key or phone, if the facial recognition is robust enough.

If they were planning for the oft rumored augmented reality HUD, they'd need a way to align the HUD image to the driver's head position, and the camera could help with that.

It's also possible that Tesla intends to develop it into the driver attention monitor you described, despite the challenges, though I would have thought they'd put it more towards the driver.
 
As previously mentioned, the nag is consistent every 20 seconds - no matter the speed. This is probably one of the most disappointing updates that I have received in the past year. :(

Holding the wheel on the lower left side with constant downward pressure resolves the issue. Nice work Tesla. :confused:

Looks like I have to go buy some oranges. :)
 
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I just realized something: the whole AP experience while holding the wheel and constantly trying to apply small amounts of resistance/torque (and still getting nagged every now and then) is now stressful enough that it’s no better FOR ME than to just use TACC.

If I’m putting so much work to get nags to go away, might as well steer myself on mostly straight highways.

I’m now realizing that a camera with attention detection is the first principles way to solve this. If the goal is to make sure you’re paying attention, then jiggling the wheel is an inferior way to determine that.

It’s like asking us to constantly apply small accelerator or brake inputs to keep TACC engaged.
 
Let’s just call it driver assist now since this is no longer remotely close to autopilot.

This is a perfect encapsulation of the cognitive dissonance that afflicts the credulous Tesla fan mindset: Quick to attack any driver who uses the system the way Tesla (in every forum except its own backside-covering disclaimers) aggressively wink-wink suggests the system can and should be used -- i.e., as a hands-free 'Autopilot' -- because those drivers are too 'stupid,' 'ignorant,' etc. to understand that it is not hands-free but a mere driver assist system . . . yet equally quick to complain when Tesla takes away the ability of Tesla enthusiasts (who style themselves as more capable than those stupid 'average' drivers) to misuse the system as a hands-free autopilot, i.e., as a toy that puts the lives of other drivers on the road at risk.

If y'all don't see the wooden nickel Tesla is putting in front of you here, I've got a bridge to sell you. It's a for-profit business, not a crusade. "Elon" doesn't see you as super-useful beta testers or part of some leading-edge vanguard. He sees you as tools to be led around by the nose and repeat his talking points in service of his current goal, which is to create the impression out there among tech journalists (the most credulous of all journalists) and the general public (most of whom aren't self-driving tech enthusiasts and reasonably enough aren't following this all that closely) that Tesla has spooky amazing self-driving technology that it doesn't actually have, while counting on legal disclaimers that contradict what Tesla says/does elsewhere to protect him from the consequences of misleading the public, and gullible fans to be an army of advocates and buy his claptrap about how much smarter, braver, forward-thinking, tough-minded, and savvy than that herd of cows out there who aren't part of the elite cohort of Those Who Recognize Elon Knows Best. And he's been very successful so far. (He would, in all seriousness, be a highly effective cult leader, though Tesla pays better I'm sure!)

There's a reason other automakers and regulators are aghast at the way Tesla has approached Autopilot from the start, and it's not because they are backwards-thinking grey-flannel-suit-wearing narrow-minded "boring questions aren't cool" bureaucrats who can't think outside the box, or because Tesla's mere existence threatens the mere existence of other automakers. That's more Musk-generated propaganda designed to flatter his customers and admirers into thinking that Smart People Always Believe Elon So If I'm With Elon Then I'm Smart And The Doubters Are Dumb/Backwards/Whatever (TM). The reason regulators and other automakers are aghast is because you don't do it this way, and you don't do it this way for good reason. Cars are high-stakes. Somewhere approaching 100 people will die in or because of a car in the U.S. before today is out. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 will be injured today. (Oh, and if you buy Musk's appallingly cynical fuzzy math about how it's proven that Tesla is already making the roads safer I've got an even bigger and longer bridge to sell you.) You don't introduce driver-assist technology until you know it really, really works and you don't misrepresent, fudge, wink-wink, or do anything but talk straight to the public about what your driver-assist technology can and cannot do. Doing your best to make the public think your tech is worthy of the name "Autopilot" while relying on contradictory disclaimers to protect yourself is dangerous and just plain huckster-sleazy.

Autopilot crashes aren't happening because people are too "stupid" and "ignorant" to handle the technology; they're happening because people are people, and it is 100% foreseeable that if you give drivers hands-free technology that kind of works some-to-much of the time and your public-facing message (to include videos of your CEO using it) encourages them to go ahead and use it hands-free, then they are gonna use it hands-free, and if they're using it hands-free they will eventually become distracted, not because they are "stupid" but because *anyone* (even an elite Tesla enthusiast) would eventually become distracted in that circumstance, because (say it with me now) They. Are. Human. And once they become distracted they are now in a driverless car lacking driverless car technology and sooner or later they're gonna crash into something or someone.

It'd be nice to see some of the anger currently directed at those benighted souls who took away all the fun -- i.e., the general public, those stuffy fearful regulators -- redirected where it belongs, at Elon Musk and Tesla for playing us all for suckers and trying to sell us a self-driving bridge.

Nikola Tesla himself was deft at convincing the public (even now all these decades after his death) that he had spooky amazing technology that he didn't actually have (force fields and such). I wonder sometimes if Musk chose the name Tesla as a little inside joke for himself (Barnum must've been his runner-up), to remind himself daily how he's leading us around by the nose with don't-look-too-closely-at-the-details promises (self-driving technology, vactrain technology as currently practical and economically viable on a large scale) that are forever almost-fulfilled.
 
I just realized something: the whole AP experience while holding the wheel and constantly trying to apply small amounts of resistance/torque (and still getting nagged every now and then) is now stressful enough that it’s no better FOR ME than to just use TACC.

If I’m putting so much work to get nags to go away, might as well steer myself on mostly straight highways.

I’m now realizing that a camera with attention detection is the first principles way to solve this. If the goal is to make sure you’re paying attention, then jiggling the wheel is an inferior way to determine that.

It’s like asking us to constantly apply small accelerator or brake inputs to keep TACC engaged.
Are you ok with "hands on" if it works correctly. Or no matter what you want "hands off"?

If you are really from the "hands off" camp you will never be happy until Tesla comes out with FSD or back tracks.

If you have no problem with "hands on", I think if you give it a little time to train you brain/motor system it will become very natural and not a problem. So much better then simply using TACC and then driving yourself. You could actually start with TACC+AS and "pretend / go thru the motions" of driving yourself by following the movement of AS to remove the nags. Slight movement of the wheel is all that is needed which you might be doing anyway if driving yourself. Very similar for me.

I will give you example of what I when thru with my computer (brain/motor). When I first switched from Windows to Mac I was interested in using a Track Pad (to kind of match my laptop). I liked it but still switched back to the mouse after a bit to get real work done. But it was important to me to switch to the Track Pad so I said to myself I would give it 1 week of nothing but the Track Pad. I had to get use to a few things but after that 1 week I have never looked back. So much happier to be using a Track Pad instead of a mouse. But like I said I really have to give it a little time. And I was motivated to make the switch.

Hope this helps.
 
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Are you ok with "hands on" if it works correctly. Or no matter what you want "hands off"?

If you are really from the "hands off" camp you will never be happy until Tesla comes out with FSD or back tracks.

If you have no problem with "hands on", I think if you give it a little time to train you brain/motor system it will become very natural and not a problem. So much better then simply using TACC and then driving yourself. You could actually start with TACC+AS and "pretend / go thru the motions" of driving yourself by following the movement of AS to remove the nags. Slight movement of the wheel is all that is needed which you might be doing anyway if driving yourself. Very similar for me.

I will give you example of what I when thru with my computer (brain/motor). When I first switched from Windows to Mac I was interested in using a Track Pad (to kind of match my laptop). I liked it but still switched back to the mouse after a bit to get real work done. But it was important to me to switch to the Track Pad so I said to myself I would give it 1 week of nothing but the Track Pad. I had to get use to a few things but after that 1 week I have never looked back. So much happier to be using a Track Pad instead of a mouse. But like I said I really have to give it a little time. And I was motivated to make the switch.

Hope this helps.

I found that it took me a few weeks to get used to AS with hands on. At first I didn’t like it and found it quite irritating, but I persevered and now find it quite natural and relaxing. I get the odd nag but so easy to cancel it with a subtle steering input. AP simply isn’t clever enough to be true hands off at this point anyway.
 
Odd that it was timed at exactly the time $TSLA crossed $352.00

Guffaw! Well played, Joe F, going all insta-conspiratorial as the most likely explanation for me joining the boards.

Musk wants this, people. This is what he is counting on: the instant questioning of the motives of anyone who criticizes him in any way, so that the troubling doubter can be quickly dismissed and put out of mind, or out of the compound. (Again, this is right out of the cult leader playbook.) (Also, there's another prominent public figure who plays from this exact same playbook. He and Musk know each other. I won't say who. Think on it ... It'll come ...)

In boring reality, I'm real-life pals with Economite (another poster much resented here for throwing cold water on the uncritical adulation of Musk and his "Really, I'm too much, I kill me" cynicism), and he's always sending me "here's a doozy" links from the boards. (Sorry, Economite. Keep fighting the good fight, using calm, boring ol' reason and a dash of grown-up skepticism to slay those hordes of bad arguments, ad hominem attacks, and nonresponsive posts like so many kung fu movie villains coming at ya all at once.) I've been following these threads from afar for some time now and this morning happened to be the day I felt what-the-heck enough and eye-roll-y enough to post. Call me cynical, call my heart dead, call me a middle-aged dad whose seen enough of the world to know there's no free lunch. But I do gain considerable instructional value from watching folks here line up to thank Musk for playing them like suckers. I mean that. It's informative at this moment to be reminded that we, all of us humans, really don't change, and keep getting played by the same con men in different costumes, age after age, over and over.

===MASK COMES OFF===

Nope, you got me. I'm part of a cynical stock-price-manipulating cabal bent on ... oh, I exhaust myself.

Be less credulous, people! Self-directed adult life awaits!

Have a great day, all.

(Johno is banned for "trolling" in three ... two ... one ...)
 
um...not quite.

Ah, the content-free scoff, designed to defeat an argument without actually having to do the work of defeating it, by publicly signalling that it is so clearly insane or otherwise outside-the-bounds that it doesn't merit a reply.

Tell us how you really feel.

Paired up with the Johno-isn't-arguing-he's-just-ranting-so-ignore-ignore-nothing-to-see-here signal. Nice! A two-fer. Keep 'em coming!
 
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As previously mentioned, the nag is consistent every 20 seconds - no matter the speed. This is probably one of the most disappointing updates that I have received in the past year. :(

Holding the wheel on the lower left side with constant downward pressure resolves the issue. Nice work Tesla. :confused:

Looks like I have to go buy some oranges. :)

You are pretty much the reason why it needs to nag every 20 seconds.
 
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I am a happy 2 year owner of an MX P90DL and l also fully agree with Johno above. Most of us "get" that Autopilot is no such thing and we bought a dream that will take 5 times longer to realize than promised. I personally like to drive hands on and only use AP on good highways or stop and go traffic. It is also useless in winter in Canada when the roads are covered in snow and ice since you cannot see the markings. I feel sad for the people who believed the hype but it does not take aways the shine from my love of my own car.

But also kudos to Johno as I think his analysis is witty, clear and frankly correct. Open debate and dissenting opinions should be respected.

:D
 
Guffaw! Well played, Joe F, going all insta-conspiratorial as the most likely explanation for me joining the boards.

Musk wants this, people. This is what he is counting on: the instant questioning of the motives of anyone who criticizes him in any way, so that the troubling doubter can be quickly dismissed and put out of mind, or out of the compound. (Again, this is right out of the cult leader playbook.) (Also, there's another prominent public figure who plays from this exact same playbook. He and Musk know each other. I won't say who. Think on it ... It'll come ...)

Sorry, you're so far from reality it's almost comical.

You have no idea what anyone thinks, including Mr. Musk. You then must be assigning your own believes to those assembled here. Your arguments that the good folks here are somehow nothing more than lemmings is more insulting than the distain you hold for someone who's accomplished what others can only dream of. Then you insult those who believe in the technology as being "gullible" and in your words as being "tools led around by the nose."

Are you surprised your motives are not going to be questioned?

Perhaps you should look inward before assigning labels on those you know nothing about.

I believe in what I see and experience, and question those who doth protest too much. And you, by the voracity of your failed attempts here to date, do just that.
 
It's simple. You drive the car, if it crashes into a stationary object, it's your fault.

Doesn't matter if it's a barrier, stopped truck or debris in your lane.

Should not matter if you were driving it, using cruise control or AP. Its ultimately your responsibility what your car does.

Anyone here that's ever driven above the speed limit has broken the law. So please don't tell me how I'm holding my steering wheel wrong or how people like me ruin everything for people like your... It's not us against them.

We just want to use our car as responsible adults.