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Updated autopilot sucks!

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It's in Tesla's best interest, legally, to NOT detect hands on the wheel very well. It leaves them a way to blame the driver when AP fails and causes accidents.

That may sound odd, but it could even be that the driver might legally be more safe if he used a nag-prevention tool that indicates to the logger that the hands always have been on the wheel. The statements Tesla made about the drivers in the crash cases are really disturbing. You could be accused of driving hands-free, although the reason was just a flawfull detection.
 
Please tell me about all the other hardware possibilities Tesla has in its current fleet to do the mandatory driver awareness checks. The bottom line is that Tesla has to do the checks or will get sued for every penny they have.

You can get sued for anything. As there is no law that requires an awareness check by the car, they probably cannot get convicted if they would not do it at all.
 
That may sound odd, but it could even be that the driver might legally be more safe if he used a nag-prevention tool that indicates to the logger that the hands always have been on the wheel. The statements Tesla made about the drivers in the crash cases are really disturbing. You could be accused of driving hands-free, although the reason was just a flawfull detection.

It's measuring the torque in real time, and apparently recording it in the black box. Tesla may not have programmed it to prompt when it sees a continuous torque from a defeat device yet (though I'm a little surprised they haven't,) but there's no way it won't be noticed when they analyze the crash and then come out in court - which will presumably look very bad for the prison using the defeat device.
 
It's measuring the torque in real time, and apparently recording it in the black box. Tesla may not have programmed it to prompt when it sees a continuous torque from a defeat device yet (though I'm a little surprised they haven't,) but there's no way it won't be noticed when they analyze the crash and then come out in court - which will presumably look very bad for the prison using the defeat device.

A single hand resting on the wheel applying constant torque would look the same to the black box.
 
Apparently Tesla's software nanny disagrees with you. I have to intentionally vary the steering torque in order to prevent the nag messages.

It's not the level of variation that you're falling short on to prevent a nag - if that were the case, the defeat devices would be completely non-functional. You just aren't putting enough torque on to cross the threshold in the programming at any point in your variation. From what I've read in these threads, it sounds like 21.9 might have a lower threshold, though.
 
It's not the level of variation that you're falling short on to prevent a nag - if that were the case, the defeat devices would be completely non-functional. You just aren't putting enough torque on to cross the threshold in the programming at any point in your variation. From what I've read in these threads, it sounds like 21.9 might have a lower threshold, though.

I have to get very near to disengaging AP in order for the torque to register. It quickly becomes tiring in the hand and fingers to keep this much constant pressure on the wheel. We're talking in excess of 5 lbs of pressure in my car to prevent the messages.
 
I have to get very near to disengaging AP in order for the torque to register. It quickly becomes tiring in the hand and fingers to keep this much constant pressure on the wheel. We're talking in excess of 5 lbs of pressure in my car to prevent the messages.

Yup. I've read of cases like that - it seems like there might be some variation in the sensitivity of the wheel torque sensor? Which firmware are you on?

Along with the more frequent interval, folks are reporting they aren't seeing the prompt as often when they are holding the wheel - suggesting something changed with the threshold. 21.9 doesn't seem to add anything useful for AP1, so since I can't roll back I think I'm waiting for the next version instead (was offered 21.9 this morning.)
 
Yup. I've read of cases like that - it seems like there might be some variation in the sensitivity of the wheel torque sensor? Which firmware are you on?

Along with the more frequent interval, folks are reporting they aren't seeing the prompt as often when they are holding the wheel - suggesting something changed with the threshold. 21.9 doesn't seem to add anything useful for AP1, so since I can't roll back I think I'm waiting for the next version instead (was offered 21.9 this morning.)

21.9 currently. This wasn't nearly as bad under 18.2 (not sure of the .x). It definitely became harder to prevent the messages after the update. I've tried rebooting, which seemed to help for a bit, but it's not better, or at least it didn't stay better. This indicates a software issue, not a hardware one.
 
Seems to me we started off trying the wrong foot, and just make it exponentially worse by doubling down on a bad solution...repeatedly.

Function: Safety feature to modulate speed and lane maintenance.
Problem: Use of the function while being inattentive results in unsafe consequences.
Root Cause: Inattentiveness/Lack of driver attention

Implemented Solution: Require [minimal] driver input
Result: Inattentiveness/Lack of driver attention resulting in unsafe consequences.
Root Cause: Inattentiveness/Lack of driver attention

Implemented Solution: Require [minimal] driver input more frequently
Result: Annoyance to customers resulting in less frequent use of the safety feature.
Root Cause: Driver inputs required too frequently

Proposed Solution: Clearly state that driver input is minimal.
Expected Result: [Predicted] Annoyance to customers resulting in less frequent use of the safety feature.
Root Cause: Driver inputs required too frequently

Dear Tesla/Elon, how about we address the root cause? You were so great as a company at getting past the problems and just getting things to work in the past. It's as if you've forgotten how to solve problems in the present.

Working backwards.
Root Cause: Driver inputs required too frequently
Proposed Solution: Require less driver inputs!

Root Cause: Inattentiveness/Lack of driver attention
Proposed Solution: Implement an actual solution that measures driver attentiveness.

Here's just one man's suggestion. I'm sure there are thousand others.

Measure reaction time of a driver to an alert/notification.
Since Tesla's already gone with steering input, I'll stick with Tesla's baseline but modify it.

- Step 1. Alert for driver input every (old limit of 2min)
- Step 2. Measure response of the driver (How many seconds until input recieved)
- Step 3. Does it exceed average reaction time + X buffer? If so, retain alert frequency or increase frequency of alerts. If not, reduce the frequency of alerts. Heck if you want, put a cap on maximum time for alerting based on no detected driver input (5min? 10min?)

Repeat Steps 1-3 until the drive is over. Then reset to your baseline on the next drive and repeat steps 1-3.

This allows for Tesla's butt to be covered in the event of an accident. Because you tested the drivers attentiveness. The system adjusts based on inputs that indicate driver attention and there was a reasonable amount of data to support whether someone was paying attention.

If the driver has shown to be an inattentive driver, you're taking safety actions to require more frequent inputs. But if there is no evidence of inattentiveness and the driver is responding and alert to the notifications; reward them and give them some rope.

PS. I also think there should be no limit at all and people should stop being blaming Tesla. If I stopped paying attention and screwed up, that's on me. But if we're going to get all nanny based on this; I think the above would be much easier to swallow. Otherwise, next up: Maximum speed on all cars will be the federal speed limit.
 
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Anecdotally, though I have no problem with the wheel recognizing I’m holding it, I have noticed I’ve been subconsciously activating AP less and less and just using TACC these past few days. I still understand why they did it (the media and negative publicity) but yeah...