NTSB update for Autopilot has me looking for an anti-nag device

[AlanSubie4Life]

To be fair, getting FSD right is an enormous task. It has to be better than a human at driving in all conditions or else we will judge it as not good enough. As long as it isn't better than a good human driver, it can't be trusted and thus it needs to be supervised which is annoying. IOW it is not only not helpful until it reaches better-than-human performance, it is an annoyance until then.

This isn’t quite true.

AP is not as good as a good human driver but it is still useful when used judiciously.

FSD would be similar in some domains if it could just master the fundamentals of smooth driving. You’d still need to take over in known problem spots but at least it would be tolerable elsewhere and it is possible it could reduce inattention accident rates there (unclear and we have no data, even for AP).

I could be wrong, but inattention seems more common on surface streets than freeways (obviously occurs everywhere), so perhaps there’s more room for a safety improvement.

But anyway yes this is a challenge of FSD, and detractors have long argued that L2 on City Streets is not useful, since it doesn’t really reduce driver load or make for a more relaxing drive. It’s kind of useful on long straight stretches of suburbia at the moment (I am fortunate enough to have a stretch like this). But it’s not good enough even for that simple task, yet. The anticipation and reaction time are just not there.

 

[David99]

This isn’t quite true.

AP is not as good as a good human driver but it is still useful when used judiciously.

FSD would be similar in some domains if it could just master the fundamentals of smooth driving. You’d still need to take over in known problem spots but at least it would be tolerable elsewhere and it is possible it could reduce inattention accident rates there (unclear and we have no data, even for AP).

That is exactly what I mean. It does a great for the majority of the normal driving, but it fails every so often where you have to take over and do so very quickly. It's not foreseeable. That is exactly why it is so stressful to use it. You just never know when it will fail. The random phantom braking has made my heart drop to my butthole way too many times. It has driven through red lights, failed to stop for pedestrians, changed into the wrong lane, made very sudden steering changes out of the blue. Those situations are not common but they happen and I have to be alert all the time because they happen at random. It is actually pretty stressful. That's why I mean. At this point it doesn't help me drive, it doesn't make me feel safer, it causes more stress.

AP strictly on freeways is a different story. It has been very reliable and helpful. I use it all the time on road trips and it makes driving more relaxed and safer. I know exactly it's limitation and can take over ahead of time. Since 90% of my driving is on freeways I love it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It does a great for the majority of the normal driving, but it fails every so often where you have to take over and do so very quickly. It's not foreseeable.

Yes this is a problem.

It has to be better than a human at driving in all conditions or else we will judge it as not good enough. As long as it isn't better than a good human driver, it can't be trusted

However, not sure this follows.

Certainly it is very problematic to have something that works 99.9% of the time and fails in unpredictable ways.

So it’s hard to know how this gap will be dealt with.

AP also fails in a bunch of ways, but the reaction times required are usually longer and situations are simpler. People will disengage when right next to a barrier at 80mph or use extra vigilance.

So it’s trickier for FSD but I am not sure better than a human is required for basic utility. And the nature of the failures will be important for determining overall effect on accident rate.

Anyway has been much debated and I do not know the answer.

I still think the promise is for FSD to get really really good and then just run it in the background and stop people from running into things. Rather than running in foreground.

But FSD is nowhere near that good yet and not clear it ever will be. Has to have very very low false positive rate to do that.

 

[Unclepaul]

Reality is that Tesls is still in the process of inventing and implementing a long awaitied high level autonomous driving system. They are converting over from lines of code to an AI augmented vision system.
We customers are along for the ride as well, and constantly looking for work arounds and cheats is going to frustrate all parties. There are legal, moral, intellectual, practicle and economic motivations for everyone to go with the evolving systems.
Best pracitces would have everyone getting on the program, Figuring out the system and working with it to provide the safest and most enjoyable utilization of this evolving technology.

 

[sleepydoc]

Better voice recognition. It used to be great, but rarely understands me. It's certainly worse in my MS than my MY.

Maybe you need to get rid of your outrageous accent...

 

[sleepydoc]

Eyes on road, hands at 9 and 3, applying zero torque unless requested. I was very careful not to apply any torque unless requested.

I strongly suspect you are applying torque without realizing it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I strongly suspect you are applying torque without realizing it.

No, I am not. I know what torque is, and I am careful to avoid it, even subconsciously. I just keep my fingertips lightly in contact with the wheel. Many months ago I started to break myself of my habit of applying static torque (because it became no longer useful to do so).

I can do a video at some point if you want. The exact number of nags will vary depending on the circumstances.

I don't know which vehicle you have but if this problem (nags every 30 seconds or whatever you reported - it was very high frequency) persists in high certainty situations on well-marked roads in daylight where you have your eyes locked on the road, and both hands lightly on the wheel without applying torque, you should have your vehicle checked for issues.

 

[Blacktes24]

It's not a wheel weight. Those seem VERY dangerous IMO

What I'm talking about it essentially an emulator that randomly (or at a set interval) moves the scroll wheel up/down to eliminate the nag.

i only got to use the wheel weight a few times and it was amazing i felt i paid better attention to the road not being nagged every 10-20 seconds having to mess with the scroll wheel all the time or apply pressure. to me, the autosteer has got so bad it's basically a gimmick and literally almost less of a pain to just actually drive.

 

[CCopperpot]

So I just wanted to updated this post of anyone that cares or anyone researching this in the future.

I received the device and the install was more tedious than I thought it would be. I got the vehicle side all connected and that part worked perfect as indicated, but connecting it to the back of the scroll wheel(s) was more difficult than I was anticipating. They recommend removing the steering wheel for better access and an easier installation but its not something that I was comfortable doing.

The back and forth uninstalling/installing the airbag was also something that made me quite uncomfortable... so with that said, if someone wants to take this off my hands for substantial discount to play around with, hit me up.

The good news is there is a new device floating around dubbed the TSL6 (available from EVOOOR and TESLAUNCH) that works on the exact same principle, but you daisy chain it on the OBDII port (I currently have that and a commander from ENHAUTO on my rear port). I got around to installing it yesterday, and testing it today, and it works like a charm! I actually found it significantly SAFER since I didn't once have to worry about checking the screen for annoying "torque the wheel" nags. I am on the latest firmware as well (2024.2.3)

I would highly recommend it for anyone that wants a safer and less frustrating autopilot experience.

 

[nonStopSwagger]

Nice. Does the TSL6 use the scroll wheel trick too? I ask as I was reading that with the latest version of FSD (12.2.1) the scroll wheel "nag acknowledgement" feature is no longer working.

 

[CCopperpot]

Nice. Does the TSL6 use the scroll wheel trick too? I ask as I was reading that with the latest version of FSD (12.2.1) the scroll wheel "nag acknowledgement" feature is no longer working.

Yup. from what I can tell, the TSL6 works exactly the same and the TSL1/2... but just does it through the OBD instead. I don't use FSD so I wasn't aware that you couldn't use the wheel to ignore a nag. Works great on AP though

 

[Supcom]

Yup. from what I can tell, the TSL6 works exactly the same and the TSL1/2... but just does it through the OBD instead. I don't use FSD so I wasn't aware that you couldn't use the wheel to ignore a nag. Works great on AP though

Yes, it appears that Tesla has caught on to the scroll-bot trick and has simply disabled using scroll wheels to defeat the nag. It appeared in the v12 release. I would expect it to show up for AP users soon.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes, it appears that Tesla has caught on to the scroll-bot trick and has simply disabled using scroll wheels to defeat the nag. It appeared in the v12 release. I would expect it to show up for AP users soon.

Yep, very likely to trickle to AP, just like how cabin camera is slowly being phased in.

 

[CCopperpot]

I suspect you are probably right.... although the camera still isn't required for AP so I'll keep hoping that they don't mess with it.

If and when they take that ability away, I will likely have to think long and hard about updating or not. This little device, combined with the enhauto resume AP function, has made Autopilot nearly perfect IMO

 

[69KWH]

So I just wanted to updated this post of anyone that cares or anyone researching this in the future.

I received the device and the install was more tedious than I thought it would be. I got the vehicle side all connected and that part worked perfect as indicated, but connecting it to the back of the scroll wheel(s) was more difficult than I was anticipating. They recommend removing the steering wheel for better access and an easier installation but its not something that I was comfortable doing.

The back and forth uninstalling/installing the airbag was also something that made me quite uncomfortable... so with that said, if someone wants to take this off my hands for substantial discount to play around with, hit me up.

The good news is there is a new device floating around dubbed the TSL6 (available from EVOOOR and TESLAUNCH) that works on the exact same principle, but you daisy chain it on the OBDII port (I currently have that and a commander from ENHAUTO on my rear port). I got around to installing it yesterday, and testing it today, and it works like a charm! I actually found it significantly SAFER since I didn't once have to worry about checking the screen for annoying "torque the wheel" nags. I am on the latest firmware as well (2024.2.3)

I would highly recommend it for anyone that wants a safer and less frustrating autopilot experience.

Thanks for the information! Quick question, can this be turned off? Ideally, I'd like to only turn it on manually for longer road trips but leave it off during normal driving times.

 

[David99]

Thanks for the information! Quick question, can this be turned off? Ideally, I'd like to only turn it on manually for longer road trips but leave it off during normal driving times.

Yes, you just double click the scroll wheel and it turns on/off. I had no issues installing it. Took me less than 10 min. It really makes driving long distances so much better. I do keep my hand on the wheel, but Tesla just wants more torque and it nags me. I mean the whole idea having to turn the wheel when you want the car to go straight is just wrong in any way you look at it.

 

[69KWH]

I received my TSL6 module in the mail today, here are my thoughts:

• Took about 2 weeks to arrive from China (not bad)
• Arrived in a box with just the module (safely packaged) and the trim tool. No instructions in box.
• Installation was as easy as the video on the EVOOOR website shows it to be...installs in the CANBUS port under rear vents
• Turning it on/off via double clicking the scroll wheel is the manual option
  • It will automatically turn ON when you enable autopilot and will only turn OFF if you disengage autopilot via the stalk
  • If you disengage autopilot via the brake pedal or turning the steering wheel, the module will remain on. You will then need to double click the left scroll wheel to turn the module OFF.
  • According to EVOOOR, the module will automatically turn off when your car goes into sleep mode if you forget to manually turn it off
• I'm running 2023.44.1 and keep my camera cover open
  • I find this to be a good balance between convenience (no hands on wheel nags) and safety (nags if not paying attention to road for too long)
  • If you are running a software version with the post recall (gimped) autopilot, you might want to cover your cabin camera when using this module to avoid receiving strikes
• It works well on stretches of road without interruptions (traffic lights, stop signs, etc)
  • I use it on back roads and freeways, but NOT city streets
• There is no audible impact to speaker volume when listening to music and using the module simultaneously
• $150 feels steep for what this is but it is the only option on the market for those that don't want to mess with removing airbags and steering wheels

 

[It’s Me]

My personal battle with FSD.

Got the car with FSD just under a year ago.

Initial impression for highway driving, riding along on the highway, arm resting on the steering wheel is exactly the way to drive it… on the highway. It did a decent job there with little intervention and almost no nag. And it’s gotten better with updates. Just resting my hand on the wheel was fine for hours and it would navigate on autopilot and take the exits and change lanes to pass cars and whatnot. Didn’t always handle construction the way it should, but for the most part it was more than fine.

Initial impression for in town driving, it was useless. A gimmick. It did get better with updates, and perhaps my ability to anticipate the problems got better too. And by getting better, I’ve found myself trying to use it more and more around town. Having said that, simply resting my hand on the steering wheel DOES NOT WORK for in town driving! Are those of you that insist that resting your hand on the steering wheel actually trying to use FSD in non-highway situations? More on this:

Approaching an unprotected left:

OK, I’ve come to a stop and waiting on traffic clearing for the car to make the maneuver. Knowing that when it does, it’s going to be a quick spin of the wheel so I take my hand off in anticipation. While stopped, no nags, no problem. But as soon as the car starts spinning the wheel and moving forward, BLUE SCREEN! Wheel is still spinning, first left and then right. I end up taking control of the car, not because we are in danger, but because I want to avoid a strike and there’s no way to apply torque with the wheel spinning like that.

So then, I adopt the strategy of trying to keep a bit of torque on the wheel while waiting for the maneuver and try to anticipate when it will start the maneuver and let go of the wheel so it can spin left and then right. If I guess right, this works OK… I suck at guessing though. I mean, I don’t really mind if it takes an aggressive stance and punches through a narrow gap, or if it takes a patient ‘wait for the big gap’ approach. I just suck at guessing what it’s going to do. The result, it tries to rip the steering wheel through my hand resulting in an inadvertent disconnect and I have to take control.

So then, I adopt the strategy of just keeping my thump on the volume scroll wheel, rolling it back and forth while I wait to see how the car will handle the maneuver. But that leaves my hand in a spot that is less that appealing for taking over and is frankly a bit distracting itself when I really need to be focusing on several angles of traffic. I swear this was a factor in me almost getting T-boned a couple months ago. Tesla didn’t see all things, and neither did I because my attention was spit to too many directions.



This is just one example of how I find the nag to impede realistic day to to day use of FSD. Right turns at stop signs when the perpendicular traffic has no sign or signal is similar as is legal right turns on red as well as the plethora of construction scenarios or force merge traffic. Simply resting the hand on the steering wheel does not work HERE. “Resting the hand” works great on the highway, which would be fine if all I had was Enhanced Autopilot. But I don’t, I have FSD.



So when I first heard of this device, I got one (I see there are two referenced in this thread, I don’t remember which one I have). I can now use FSD in town. Am I paying attention? You betcha. And my hands are right there waiting to take control, if not actually on the wheel. I don’t trust the software enough to just let it do its thing… it still makes a lot of mistakes. But at least I can use it now.

I will say, I’m not a fan of threads like this that advertise it. If it gets popular enough, it will get shut down. It would be really easy for this ‘hack’ to get shut down. And it sounds like it did on the earlier versions of v12 (and because of this I would NOT recommend getting one for now). Some early reports indicating that maybe it works again with v12.3. We’ll see. If not, I’ll be doing my best to stay on v11 as long as I can.

 

[Dewg]

My personal battle with FSD.

Got the car with FSD just under a year ago.

Initial impression for highway driving, riding along on the highway, arm resting on the steering wheel is exactly the way to drive it… on the highway. It did a decent job there with little intervention and almost no nag. And it’s gotten better with updates. Just resting my hand on the wheel was fine for hours and it would navigate on autopilot and take the exits and change lanes to pass cars and whatnot. Didn’t always handle construction the way it should, but for the most part it was more than fine.

Initial impression for in town driving, it was useless. A gimmick. It did get better with updates, and perhaps my ability to anticipate the problems got better too. And by getting better, I’ve found myself trying to use it more and more around town. Having said that, simply resting my hand on the steering wheel DOES NOT WORK for in town driving! Are those of you that insist that resting your hand on the steering wheel actually trying to use FSD in non-highway situations? More on this:

Approaching an unprotected left:

OK, I’ve come to a stop and waiting on traffic clearing for the car to make the maneuver. Knowing that when it does, it’s going to be a quick spin of the wheel so I take my hand off in anticipation. While stopped, no nags, no problem. But as soon as the car starts spinning the wheel and moving forward, BLUE SCREEN! Wheel is still spinning, first left and then right. I end up taking control of the car, not because we are in danger, but because I want to avoid a strike and there’s no way to apply torque with the wheel spinning like that.

So then, I adopt the strategy of trying to keep a bit of torque on the wheel while waiting for the maneuver and try to anticipate when it will start the maneuver and let go of the wheel so it can spin left and then right. If I guess right, this works OK… I suck at guessing though. I mean, I don’t really mind if it takes an aggressive stance and punches through a narrow gap, or if it takes a patient ‘wait for the big gap’ approach. I just suck at guessing what it’s going to do. The result, it tries to rip the steering wheel through my hand resulting in an inadvertent disconnect and I have to take control.

So then, I adopt the strategy of just keeping my thump on the volume scroll wheel, rolling it back and forth while I wait to see how the car will handle the maneuver. But that leaves my hand in a spot that is less that appealing for taking over and is frankly a bit distracting itself when I really need to be focusing on several angles of traffic. I swear this was a factor in me almost getting T-boned a couple months ago. Tesla didn’t see all things, and neither did I because my attention was spit to too many directions.



This is just one example of how I find the nag to impede realistic day to to day use of FSD. Right turns at stop signs when the perpendicular traffic has no sign or signal is similar as is legal right turns on red as well as the plethora of construction scenarios or force merge traffic. Simply resting the hand on the steering wheel does not work HERE. “Resting the hand” works great on the highway, which would be fine if all I had was Enhanced Autopilot. But I don’t, I have FSD.



So when I first heard of this device, I got one (I see there are two referenced in this thread, I don’t remember which one I have). I can now use FSD in town. Am I paying attention? You betcha. And my hands are right there waiting to take control, if not actually on the wheel. I don’t trust the software enough to just let it do its thing… it still makes a lot of mistakes. But at least I can use it now.

I will say, I’m not a fan of threads like this that advertise it. If it gets popular enough, it will get shut down. It would be really easy for this ‘hack’ to get shut down. And it sounds like it did on the earlier versions of v12 (and because of this I would NOT recommend getting one for now). Some early reports indicating that maybe it works again with v12.3. We’ll see. If not, I’ll be doing my best to stay on v11 as long as I can.

I keep my hands at 8 and 4 - with the hand at 8 weighing down a bit to provide a small amount of torque at all times. I rarely get nags. Even in city driving. The trick is to keep your hands on the wheel and let the wheel spin through your hands, like when you manually drive the car and do a U-Turn - when the turn is complete, you let the wheel slide through your hands until it straightens out again. Same with FSD Beta. You know the car is going to turn, so let the wheel slide through your hands, but still provide just a little bit of friction, like your fingers against the outside edge of the wheel. It's enough to satisfy the torque request, and keeps your hands in a position to take over if you need to.

By keeping your hands on the wheel, even in city driving, at all times, you also prevent the car from doing anything you don't want it to do. If you take your hands off the wheel for maneuvers, you have less reaction time to grab the wheel if the car should do something unexpected.

 

[sleepydoc]

My personal battle with FSD.

Got the car with FSD just under a year ago.

Initial impression for highway driving, riding along on the highway, arm resting on the steering wheel is exactly the way to drive it… on the highway. It did a decent job there with little intervention and almost no nag. And it’s gotten better with updates. Just resting my hand on the wheel was fine for hours and it would navigate on autopilot and take the exits and change lanes to pass cars and whatnot. Didn’t always handle construction the way it should, but for the most part it was more than fine.

Initial impression for in town driving, it was useless. A gimmick. It did get better with updates, and perhaps my ability to anticipate the problems got better too. And by getting better, I’ve found myself trying to use it more and more around town. Having said that, simply resting my hand on the steering wheel DOES NOT WORK for in town driving! Are those of you that insist that resting your hand on the steering wheel actually trying to use FSD in non-highway situations? More on this:

Approaching an unprotected left:

OK, I’ve come to a stop and waiting on traffic clearing for the car to make the maneuver. Knowing that when it does, it’s going to be a quick spin of the wheel so I take my hand off in anticipation. While stopped, no nags, no problem. But as soon as the car starts spinning the wheel and moving forward, BLUE SCREEN! Wheel is still spinning, first left and then right. I end up taking control of the car, not because we are in danger, but because I want to avoid a strike and there’s no way to apply torque with the wheel spinning like that.

So then, I adopt the strategy of trying to keep a bit of torque on the wheel while waiting for the maneuver and try to anticipate when it will start the maneuver and let go of the wheel so it can spin left and then right. If I guess right, this works OK… I suck at guessing though. I mean, I don’t really mind if it takes an aggressive stance and punches through a narrow gap, or if it takes a patient ‘wait for the big gap’ approach. I just suck at guessing what it’s going to do. The result, it tries to rip the steering wheel through my hand resulting in an inadvertent disconnect and I have to take control.

So then, I adopt the strategy of just keeping my thump on the volume scroll wheel, rolling it back and forth while I wait to see how the car will handle the maneuver. But that leaves my hand in a spot that is less that appealing for taking over and is frankly a bit distracting itself when I really need to be focusing on several angles of traffic. I swear this was a factor in me almost getting T-boned a couple months ago. Tesla didn’t see all things, and neither did I because my attention was spit to too many directions.



This is just one example of how I find the nag to impede realistic day to to day use of FSD. Right turns at stop signs when the perpendicular traffic has no sign or signal is similar as is legal right turns on red as well as the plethora of construction scenarios or force merge traffic. Simply resting the hand on the steering wheel does not work HERE. “Resting the hand” works great on the highway, which would be fine if all I had was Enhanced Autopilot. But I don’t, I have FSD.



So when I first heard of this device, I got one (I see there are two referenced in this thread, I don’t remember which one I have). I can now use FSD in town. Am I paying attention? You betcha. And my hands are right there waiting to take control, if not actually on the wheel. I don’t trust the software enough to just let it do its thing… it still makes a lot of mistakes. But at least I can use it now.

I will say, I’m not a fan of threads like this that advertise it. If it gets popular enough, it will get shut down. It would be really easy for this ‘hack’ to get shut down. And it sounds like it did on the earlier versions of v12 (and because of this I would NOT recommend getting one for now). Some early reports indicating that maybe it works again with v12.3. We’ll see. If not, I’ll be doing my best to stay on v11 as long as I can.

Yup.
One trick I’ve learned to apply torque while FSD is turning is to hold the steering wheel between your thumb and fingers and squeeze just enough so it drags while turning. That usually works for me.