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Upgraded To OEM Performance Brakes

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If making emergency stops from high speeds, better brakes shed speed faster.

More area in a larger rotor, more rotational energy -> heat via friction .. it doesn't always have to be a larger caliper if the torque it can generate can potentially lock the wheels at any time.

At both low and high speeds, reaction time is also huge factor

I have found that the MPP rotors on my car make braking feel more crisp or sharper. They will have better thermal capacity sure but the feel of the larger sweep area is noticeable. I've not yet done anything to exceed the ability of the stock caliper's braking force but I'm also not trying to out-plaid anyone. I like them and the costs were very reasonable as was the relative ease of installing them.

Only a customer here..
 
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Or course, it depends on the speed.
If making emergency stops from high speeds, better brakes shed speed faster.

Stock brakes will stop the car in exactly the same time/distance as the most fancy expensive upgraded brakes you can find for a single panic stop from any legal speed.

(this is true for nearly any production car made in the last 10-20 years at least, and probably most production cars going back even further)


Now if you're talking about repeatedly panic stopping from 150 mph or something fade becomes a thing.... but fade resistance is about maintaining the same original stopping distance over more abuse/repeated stops, not shortening the original stopping distance... which brakes can't do- tires can- since the tire is what actually stops the car.
 
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Stock brakes will stop the car in exactly the same time/distance as the most fancy expensive upgraded brakes you can find for a single panic stop from any legal speed.
That's assuming you are at locking threshold at all speeds. That is certainly not the case at high speeds where the clamping pressure and surface area can greatly increase clamping force. You mention "legal" speeds but I'm not even sure if ABS were turned off if braking is at locking threshold for all tire possibilities, especially the PS4s. Sure, at lower speeds I agree with you, but not higher.
 
That's assuming you are at locking threshold at all speeds. That is certainly not the case at high speeds where the clamping pressure and surface area can greatly increase clamping force

It's certainly the case any any legal/public road speed in the US at least. I haven't tested a model 3 at 150 mph on the autobahn though.

. You mention "legal" speeds but I'm not even sure if ABS were turned off if braking is at locking threshold for all tire possibilities, especially the PS4s.

AFAIK you can't turn off ABS so not sure why you're even bringing that up.

But I'd be happy to bet you real money in at any legal speed in the US the stock brakes will stop the car in exactly the same distance as any upgraded ones you care to test, all else (tires mainly) being equal.


Sure, at lower speeds I agree with you, but not higher.

IIRC when a car mag (pretty sure it was Car and Driver) tested this a while back they found every car they tested (everything from high end sports cars down to SUVs and Accords and crap) gained nothing in stopping distance from upgraded brakes up to at least 100 mph for a single stop.

I'm not aware of any testing available at higher speeds to see where the point that fade happens on even a single stop starts, but would certainly be happy to read it if you have a link?

Still, doesn't really matter to anybody who isn't on a race track (or maybe the autobahn?)
 
@Knightshade, All I'm tryin to make clear is it's a matter of brake torque. BBKs provide increased clamping force by apply more torque to the car which will lead to shorter stopping distances *only* if that torque is still less than the torque required to overcome the tire friction to the road, in other words, the torque required to lock the wheels in the absence of ABS.

Let's say we had no ABS....If the standard brakes produce enough torque to lock the brakes at 80mph (the maximum here in the US), then yes..,.BBK do nothing at legal speeds. If the standard brakes don't lock at 80mph but do end up locking at a lesser speed, say 35 mph, then increasing the brake torque from 80 mph to 35 mph will result in a quicker stopping distance during that interval only. The quickest stopping distance will be achieved with the brake torque *just* under the tire friction limit.
Once the ABS is dong it's thing (which means braking torque exceeds tire friction)...I agree BBK do nothing. I just don't know what speed that starts to happen (and it will be different depending on car as it depends on speed and tires as well as suspension condition).
 
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@Knightshade, All I'm tryin to make clear is it's a matter of brake torque. BBKs provide increased clamping force by apply more torque to the car which will lead to shorter stopping distances *only* if that torque is still less than the torque required to overcome the tire friction to the road, in other words, the torque required to lock the wheels in the absence of ABS.


Ok. But the point is the stock brakes (on the Model 3, and pretty much every production car in the last decade or two at least) do have enough force to lock the wheels in the absence of ABS at any legal speed (and a fair bit above it)... (or to engage ABS in the presence of it- which every car in production in the US or EU today is required to have)

Further you have to watch out for folks who think just upgrading their calipers is going to stop them any shorter-especially those who don't swap other matching parts when doing it.

GRM Pulp Friction Page 3

Guy who designs braking systems for a living and both writes books on and teaches SAE master classes on the topic said:
Remember: Bigger calipers don't create any more "stopping power" and they do not "decrease stopping distance"--they just generate higher clamp loads for a given pressure input

(more specifics and math at the link)


Let's say we had no ABS....If the standard brakes produce enough torque to lock the brakes at 80mph (the maximum here in the US), then yes..,.BBK do nothing at legal speeds.

I'm not sure why you keep wanting to dismiss ABS when every new car has it and has for years?

Nor why it really makes a difference either way- if you can lock the wheels you can engage the ABS system (that's kinda why we HAVE ABS systems- to deal with situations you'd otherwise lock the brakes)


If the standard brakes don't lock at 80mph but do end up locking at a lesser speed, say 35 mph, then increasing the brake torque from 80 mph to 35 mph will result in a quicker stopping distance during that interval only.

Ok- but that's not how any modern cars works, even with stock brakes. How they work is they can easily lock/engage ABS at 35, 80, or even 100 miles an hour.

I mean- if cars had magical tires on magical roadways with 1000 times more traction/friction available to them then BBKs would also matter there too. But that's also not the actual world we're in.


The quickest stopping distance will be achieved with the brake torque *just* under the tire friction limit.
Once the ABS is dong it's thing (which means braking torque exceeds tire friction)...I agree BBK do nothing.

Ok... but again- every production car, going back years now, both has ABS, and can engage it with the stock braking system at any US-legal speed... so BBKs indeed do nothing for those cars outside of race tracks.

Which was my entirely original statement you seemed to be taking issue with.


I just don't know what speed that starts to happen (and it will be different depending on car as it depends on speed and tires as well as suspension condition).

Well, from the magazine testing I mentioned earlier we can be pretty confident it's north of 100 mph. I agree how far north will vary by car- I expect something like a 911 you won't be able to fade even the stock brakes on any single panic stop a lot higher than, say, a Corolla.... I base that on the tests I've seen where they compare the stock 911 brakes with the $10,000 PCCB upgrade kit and observe 0 change in stopping distance even after making 10 back to back high speed stops (an experience the corolla obviously won't replicate, but it'll stop fine the first time even on stockers).

But since in all cases you're discussing speeds dozens of mph above anything legal anywhere in the US I'm unsure how it changes anything I've said.... BBKs are largely useless/worthless anywhere outside a race track, and if you want a street-used car to stop any shorter you need to upgrade the tires not the brakes, since the tires are what actually stops the car.
 
Don’t worry about ABS then. I still think you are missing my point.

We differ in your following statement;
But the point is the stock brakes (on the Model 3, and pretty much every production car in the last decade or two at least) do have enough force to lock the wheels in the absence of ABS at any legal speed
I’m not sure this is true but I have nothing definitive to back this up, especially with stickier tires. You have any reference for this statement?
 
Don’t worry about ABS then. I still think you are missing my point.

We differ in your following statement;

I’m not sure this is true but I have nothing definitive to back this up, especially with stickier tires. You have any reference for this statement?


I mean... physics?

Also the fact that all the sources provided the last 473 times this topic came up- including Stoptech, Brembo, Road and Track, Car and Driver, an engineer who designs OEM braking systems, and more, all say the same thing?


If BBKs could actually reduce stopping distance in normal/street legal use, wouldn't folks like Brembo and Stoptech be screaming that from the mountains to increase sales?

Instead you have Stoptech technical whitepapers explicitly telling you why they can't do that... Or Brembos own FAQ explaining they don't offer stopping distance data because from the highway-legal speeds that is typically measured virtually all cars can lock the wheels or engage ABS- and thus

Brembo said:
an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance.




By all means if you have any sources to support your own claim that Brembo (and stoptech, and everyone else) is wrong- provide them.
 
btw, you cannot just swap to the rear performance calipers unless you get the performance rotors also...the rotors are not the same for non-performance and performance...the non performance fronts look good painted and you can barely tell difference from performance brakes but rear non performance calipers are a bit on ugly side.

If you swap the rears don't forget about getting that jumper harness!
 
Ok, odd question. If I buy used Model 3 performance rear brake calipers, will they work with the non performance rotors? My long term plan is to upgrade the rotors (perhaps Mountain Pass). Like you Mac, I didn't love the 19s and 20s that Tesla offers, so waited to do my own upgrade. Now that I have the new wheels they are begging for red calipers. I just bought new wheels and they are begging for red brake calipers. I was thinking of painting the front ones and replacing the back with used Model 3 performance as a medium term fix until I'm ready for another big hit to upgrade the rotors. Here's the new wheels. View attachment 458347
Hi all, I am very happy to have finally discovered this thread I have been searching for. I will add a post at the end with pics, but answering question here: Yes, the rear brake rotors on the Performance model and non-performance model are the same dimension (diameter). They may be identical, but I don't know that for a fact. You can find the dimensions on page 162 of your owner's manual. 335mmX20mm thick.
 
@mact3333 I am in the middle of upgrading my AWD dual motor to Performance model brake calipers. I bought the calipers recently off Ebay, fronts were $700 and the rears were $400. A few dings in the paint but not noticeable once installed. Otherwise they look brand new, virtually no wear on brake pads. Makes me wonder how the sellers got them, but whatever.

To others that may want to upgrade as well, I am doing this myself in the garage. Here's what's required:
  • Jack Lift Pad Adapter - $14.00 on Amazon
  • 2 ton floor jack - $140 at Harbour Freight
  • 18E Torx socket (fits caliper bolts) - $13 at Harbour Freight
  • Brake Bleed Kit - $15
  • Brake Fluid - $20
All other tools required I already had. Nothing out of the ordinary. Here's the parts list:
  • Model 3 Performance brake calipers - prices and sources will vary
  • Mountain Pass Performance Stock Sizing P3D+ front rotors - $1,040
  • Rear electronic parking brake jumper connectors from P3D+ (I just learned this from this thread!) - $???
  • MPP Stainless Steel Brake Lines - $155 (kinda silly not to upgrade from rubber lines if you are serious about braking performance)
To dispel other common myths, I mounted the front performance calipers and 355 mm rotors with 18" Aero wheels. I did have to grind a 1/8" corner off the brake pad wear indicator for clearance with MPP rotors - used a dremel tool with cutting disk.

Here's the pics and I'll post more later when I find the rear e-park brake wiring harnesses.
brake4.JPG
brake3.JPG
brake2.jpg
brake1.jpg
brake5.JPG
brake5.JPG
 
That's assuming you are at locking threshold at all speeds. That is certainly not the case at high speeds where the clamping pressure and surface area can greatly increase clamping force. You mention "legal" speeds but I'm not even sure if ABS were turned off if braking is at locking threshold for all tire possibilities, especially the PS4s. Sure, at lower speeds I agree with you, but not higher.
You are both right! At typical use driving speeds, the standard model 3 brakes will achieve locking threshold. I take my AWD DM to the track and mountain roads. Stock brakes fade after just a few threshold braking efforts. Very noticeable and results in extremely mushy pedal feel and unsafe perception. I have a track day scheduled in two weeks and will report back the comparison to the stock brakes. Last time out, after the first top speed (around 120MPH) to 40MPH corner, the brake overheat indicator flashed and beeped and worried me enough I barely touched brakes after that. My initial street tests seem to indicate much less effort and far better feel in achieving locking threshold.