Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software

[beeeerock]

So when the crap first hit the fan earlier this fall, I did some reading and learned that VW actually had the M-B BlueTec technology licensed and plans were to incorporate it in the new diesels under development. I can't find the source now, but I think it was 2005-ish. However, there was a shuffle in engineering management and the new guy essentially said "we don't need no stinkin' urea" and cancelled the license with Mercedes. They went down the non-urea path and ended up at the corner of WholeLottaHurt and LegalHell.

Either bad management from the start, or maybe, a plan to deceive right from the beginning.

 

[Johan]

German engineering has finally peaked. Why work for years and years with complicated technical solutions? No, all it took for the top engineers to see the simple, yet genius solution was the threat of bankruptcy breathing down their necks. Suddenly the idea came to them, in its simplistic glory, the $5 air flow straightener, allowing you to keep both the performance AND fuel economy while at the same time bringing emissions below regulation limits. Simply amazing! *

* Minor software update may be required. Volkswagen takes no responsibility in the rare event of loss of performance or increased fuel consumption after installation.

 

[BriansTesla]

German engineering has finally peaked. Why work for years and years with complicated technical solutions? No, all it took for the top engineers to see the simple, yet genius solution was the threat of bankruptcy breathing down their necks. Suddenly the idea came to them, in its simplistic glory, the $5 air flow straightener, allowing you to keep both the performance AND fuel economy while at the same time bringing emissions below regulation limits. Simply amazing! *

* Minor software update may be required. Volkswagen takes no responsibility in the rare event of loss of performance or increased fuel consumption after installation.

Yes, corporate genius! They'll have it made in China for $.87

 

[beeeerock]

Yes, corporate genius! They'll have it made in China for $.87

Shall we start a pool? I'm already in for 12 cents... http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...tware/page63?p=1259565&viewfull=1#post1259565

 

[jgs]

* Minor software update may be required. Volkswagen takes no responsibility in the rare event of loss of performance or increased fuel consumption after installation.

You, sir, win the thread. You may also be today's winner of the Internet.

 

[Bgarret]

Interesting,creative solution proposed by Elon and a group of Californians to let VW off the hook if they make electric cars.

Elon Musk Signed an Open Letter about the VW Emissions Scandal - Fortune

 

[Johan]

Interesting,creative solution proposed by Elon and a group of Californians to let VW off the hook if they make electric cars.

Elon Musk Signed an Open Letter about the VW Emissions Scandal - Fortune

I like it.

The authors claim that simply telling Volkswagen to meet tighter diesel standards in the future “will prove even more fruitless.” It adds, “a giant sum of money will thus be wasted in attempting to fix cars that cannot all be fixed.

and this was very well put:

Direct instead VW to greatly accelerate its rollout of zero emission vehicles, which by their very nature, have zero emissions and thus present zero opportunities for cheating, and also do not require any enforcement dollars to verify

 

[nwdiver]

Interesting,creative solution proposed by Elon and a group of Californians to let VW off the hook if they make electric cars.

Elon Musk Signed an Open Letter about the VW Emissions Scandal - Fortune

I like it! Where do I sign :wink:

When Exxon is found guilty under RICO maybe we can get them to do more with wind and solar

 

[ecarfan]

The CARB may not have the legal authority to let VW "off the hook".

 

[AudubonB]

At the grave risk of veering this thread way off into controversial territory, there is very considerable belief throughout 49 states that what CARB, specifically, and Sacramento, generally, does interferes with the actions, desires, controls and policies of those outside California. This translates into resentment toward the state and its residents. I remember a young gentleman from Santa Barbara who interned with us a decade ago. He was shocked, astounded, disbelieving of us when we informed him of how hated Californians were outside their state. "No! Everybody loves us!", he insisted. It was really quite amusing, in a slow train wreck of ignorance way.

Back to your CARB comment, however, I am pretty sure CARB's commissioners know how to craft their specifications of what VW can do in California to effect this goal, if they so deem it appropriate.

 

[doug]

Full text of the letter follows:

An Open Letter to California Air Resources Board Chairman Mary Nichols

The VW emissions scandal is mainly the result of physics meeting fiction. In the simplest terms, we have reached the point of de miminis returns in extracting performance from a gallon of diesel while reducing pollutants, at least at reasonable cost. Unsurprisingly, and despite having the greatest research and development program in diesel engines, VW had to cheat to meet current European and U.S. standards. Meeting future tighter diesel standards will prove even more fruitless.

For a significant fraction of the non-compliant diesel cars already in the hands of drivers, there is no real solution. Drivers won’t come in for a fix that compromises performance.

Further, solutions which result in net greater CO2 emissions, a regulated pollutant, are inappropriate for CARB to endorse. Retrofitting urea tank systems to small cars is costly and impractical. Some cars may be fixed, but many won’t and will be crushed before they are fixed.

A giant sum of money thus will be wasted in attempting to fix cars that cannot all be fixed, and where the fix may be worse than the problem if the cars are crushed well before the end of their useful lives. We, the undersigned, instead encourage the CARB to show leadership in directing VW to “cure the air, not the cars” and reap multiples of what damage has been caused while strongly advancing California’s interests in transitioning to zero emission vehicles.

The solution we propose for VW and the CARB is to, in a legally enforceable form:

1. Release VW from its obligation to fix diesel cars already on the road in California, which represent an insignificant portion of total vehicles emissions in the State, and which cars do not, individually, present any emissions-related risk to their owners or occupants
2. Instead, direct VW to accelerate greatly its rollout of zero emission vehicles, which by their very nature, have zero emissions and thus present zero opportunities for cheating, and also do not require any enforcement dollars to verify
3. Require that this acceleration of the rollout of zero emissions vehicles by VW result in a 10 for 1 or greater reduction in pollutant emissions as compared to the pollution associated with the diesel fleet cheating, and achieve this over the next 5 years
4. Require that VW invest in new manufacturing plants and/or research and development, in the amounts that they otherwise would have been fined, and do so in California to the extent that California would have been allocated its share of the fines
5. Allow VW some flexibility in the execution and timing of this plan by allowing it to be implemented via zero emission vehicle credits.

In contrast to the punishments and recalls being considered, this proposal would be a real win for California emissions, a big win for California jobs, and a historic action to help derail climate change.

The bottleneck to the greater availability of zero emissions vehicles is the availability of batteries. There is an urgent need to build more battery factories to increase battery supply, and this proposal would ensure that large battery plant and related investments, with their ensuing local jobs, would be made in the U.S. by VW.

A satisfactory way to fix all the diesel cars does not likely exist, so this solution side steps the great injury and uncertainty that imposing an ineffective fix would place on individual diesel car owners. A drawn out and partial failure of the process will only exacerbate the public’s lack of trust in the industry and its regulators. By explicit design, this proposal would achieve, in contrast, a minimum of a 10X reduction in pollutant emissions as compared to a complete fix.

There is a precedent for this type of resolution. In the industry-wide 1990 diesel truck cheating scandal, the EPA chose not to require an interim recall but instead moved up the deadline for tougher standards to make up the difference. This proposal does the same for VW and ties the solution to a transition to zero emissions vehicles.
We strongly urge CARB to consider this proposal in resolving the VW cheating scandal.

• Ion Yadigaroglu, Partner, Capricorn Investment Group
• Elon Musk, CEO, Tesla and SpaceX
• Jeff Skoll, CEO, Jeff Skoll Group
• Dipender Saluja, Inside Straight Strategies
• Carl Pope, Partner, Capricorn Investment Group
• Chamath Palihapitiya, CEO, Social Capital
• Ira Ehrenpreis, Partner, DBL Partners
• Hal Harvey, CEO, Energy Innovation
• Antonio Gracias, CEO, Valor Equity Partners
• Lyndon Rive, CEO, SolarCity
• Michael Brune, Executive Director, Sierra Club
• Cole Frates, Renewable Resources Group
• Ari Swiller, Renewable Resources Group
• Lawrence Bender, Producer, An Inconvenient Truth
• Reuben Munger, Partner, Vision Ridge
• Jigar Shah, President, Generate Capital
• Jason Calacanis, Angel, Launch Fund
• Gregory Manuel, Partner, MNL Partners
• Adam Wolfensohn, Partner, Encourage Capital
• Jason Scott, Partner, Encourage Capital
• Martin Roscheisen, CEO, Diamond Foundry
• Steve Westly, Former California State Controller
• Jules Kortenhorst, CEO, Rocky Mountain Institute
• Steven Dietz, Partner, Upfront Ventures
• Kevin Parker, CEO, Sustainable Insight Capital
• Anja Manuel, Partner, RiceHadleyGates
• Larry Lunt, CEO, Armonia
• Mindy Lubber, President, Ceres
• Tom Darden, Partner, Cherokee Fund
• Panos Ninios, Partner, True Green Capital
• Jesse Fink, Chairman, MissionPoint
• Matt Breidert, Senior Portfolio Manager, Ecofin
• Suhail Rizvi, CEO, Rizvi Traverse
• Jeffrey Tannenbaum, Chairman, sPower
• Rob Davenport, Managing Partner, Brightpath Capital
• Stuart Davidson, Chairman, Sonen
• Laurence Levi, Partner, VO2 Partners
• Rob Day, Partner, Black Coral Capital
• Dan Fuller, CIO, Fuller Smith
• Nicholas Eisenberger, Partner, Pure Energy
• Marc Stuart, CEO, Allotrope Partners
• Justin Kamine, Kamine Development
• Peter R. Stein, Managing Director, Lyme Timber
• Bruce Kahn, PM, Sustainable Insight Capital
• Raúl Pomares, Managing Director, Sonen

 

[doug]

The CARB may not have the legal authority to let VW "off the hook".

I'm sure they would only be off the hook as far as California is concerned, and perhaps other states that follow CARB rules. Still a rather high hook.

In principle I like this idea. It diffuses the hyperbole about the relative damage the existing cheating VW vehicles on the road cause and offers a solution that actually encourages progress. It also reminds me what a bad idea CARS (aka "cash for clunkers") was.

 

[1208]

It also reminds me what a bad idea CARS (aka "cash for clunkers") was.

A major car dealer near me is offering £2000 for scrapping old cars when you buy a new one. It should
come with an *, only new EV's. Except Vauxhall don't do the Ampera EV anymore I don't think.

 

[mspohr]

At the grave risk of veering this thread way off into controversial territory, there is very considerable belief throughout 49 states that what CARB, specifically, and Sacramento, generally, does interferes with the actions, desires, controls and policies of those outside California. This translates into resentment toward the state and its residents. I remember a young gentleman from Santa Barbara who interned with us a decade ago. He was shocked, astounded, disbelieving of us when we informed him of how hated Californians were outside their state. "No! Everybody loves us!", he insisted. It was really quite amusing, in a slow train wreck of ignorance way.

Back to your CARB comment, however, I am pretty sure CARB's commissioners know how to craft their specifications of what VW can do in California to effect this goal, if they so deem it appropriate.

There's a lot of ignorance about California, and resentment. CA is really seven very different states and many people outside the state latch on to odd stereotypes. Most people in CA don't care what others think. Please just don't move here.
CARB does push the entire country towards cleaner cars and that is a good thing.

 

[nwdiver]

A major car dealer near me is offering £2000 for scrapping old cars when you buy a new one. It should
come with an *, only new EV's. Except Vauxhall don't do the Ampera EV anymore I don't think.

Agreed; Scrappage programs are good; Cash for Clunkers was just poorly executed. Sometimes you need a little extra motivation to do the rational/right thing.

 

[voyager]

Silicon Valley: "Mr. Volkswagen, tear down this diesel wall"

My mind-mapping brain sometimes makes the sort of links like this one: Reagan - Gorbachev - Berlin Wall - Volkswagen. Bottom line: VW had to cheat to meet current European and U.S. standards. Meeting future tighter diesel standards will prove even more fruitless.

Here you can read the open letter a couple of Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, Musk among them, wrote to VW:
http://www.takepart.com/open-letter-to-california-air-resources-board-chairman-mary-nichols

 

[gavine]

Lyndon Rive of Solarcity signed it too. I like the idea. Make VW spend their money on moving to zero emissions vehicles instead of trying to fix (ruin) the existing affected cars.

 

[TEG]

Full text of the letter follows:
...

1. Release VW from its obligation to fix diesel cars already on the road in California, which represent an insignificant portion of total vehicles emissions in the State, and which cars do not, individually, present any emissions-related risk to their owners or occupant.
   ...

That statement seems somewhat disingenuous. If they said "not any substantial", or "not any direct" emissions-related risk, I might have just glossed over it, but the excessive NOx is a bad thing, and it seems like you could cause yourself some harm, or at least get effected by groups of others driving the cheating vehicles around you.
NOx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"...NO[SUB]x[/SUB] reacts with ammonia, moisture, and other compounds to form nitric acid vapor and related particles. Small particles can penetrate deeply into sensitive lung tissue and damage it, causing premature death in extreme cases. Inhalation of such particles may cause or worsen respiratory diseases, such as emphysema or bronchitis, or may also aggravate existing heart disease.[SUP][13]..."

[/SUP]Are they trying to say that the car's cabin is protected from the exhaust emissions so you are only harming people behind you as you drive down the road?
What if you drive in circles, or are making a round trip back through the air you drove though before?

Many of the other points seems like valid perspectives, so I am surprised they started with this "you really can't prove who you are harming" type argument.

 

[jgs]

While I agree that "zero harm, individually" is self-evidently not strictly true, what I understood them to be saying is that the marginal harm of a single car is minor. Seems legit. Furthermore it's not like the VW fleet is the largest source of NOx, nor would removing the fleet from the roads eliminate or even greatly reduce NOx (I don't think). So other remedies do seem reasonable to consider.

 

[3mp_kwh]

RE: letter to CARB
Owners deserve the right to compel VW to fix their cars. That's where it goes wrong, by not suggesting that just the fine proceeds be reinvested in things EV/PHEV. Unless it is proven impossible to meet tier 2 bin 5 regs, who are they to horse trade others rights away? I think that's where some negative comments toward CA, Sierra Club, and others come from.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, VW seems to me to be casting the U.S. as a zealous, hypocritical lot of diesel-haters. Our government is looking to un-competitively run them out of Dodge, as some in Germany get the story. I'm not too keen on that narrative.