Waymo

[EVNow]

You did not say anything about consumer cars.

You have to see the conversation - not just that one comment.

Anyway, all L4 services are currently commercial only and severely geofences. Just that Baba is better than Waymo in terms of service area and number of cities.

 

[diplomat33]

You have to see the conversation - not just that one comment.

Ok. But IMO limiting state of the art to only what is on consumer cars is not fair. There are no consumer cars with real autonomous driving yet. The only autonomous driving that we have so far is on commercial, geofenced, robotaxis. That is where the state of the art of autonomous driving is. You can't just ignore the autonomous driving that we have. That would be like me deciding that a royal flush does not count in poker so that my straight flush is the best hand.

Anyway, all L4 services are currently commercial only and severely geofences.

My point is that just because they are commercial only and geofenced does not make then less than state of the art. They are still state of the art because they are the most advanced autonomous driving we have.

Just that Baba is better than Waymo in terms of service area and number of cities.

So is Baidu the state of the art then since they have bigger service area than Waymo? if so, Baidu is L4 so that would still make L4 is state of the art.

If your point is that you don't think Waymo's L4 is state of the art because it is too severely geofenced in your opinion. Fine. Then Baidu's L4 should count as state of the art since you are telling me it is a bigger service area than Waymo. Either way, L4 is still state of the art.

 

[Bitdepth]

Really? Can you link the most complex unprotected left you've seen from his vids?

There were many more complex scenarios, not just unprotected lefts.

Unprotected left with more traffic, creeping into the intersection to signal intent, and took it when there was a safe opening.
Unprotected left with an obstructed view of the road, took it smoothly.
Making a sharp left U-turn from a parking lot, a bit of a standoff with another car.
Unprotected left through a side entrance of parking lot area of a business complex, stopping for one car before proceeding.
Rolling unprotected left turn with a passing car without stopping.
3 point turn out of an enclosed parking lot.

JJRicks showed over 100 unprotected lefts so I'm sure there were some more interesting ones.

 

[powertoold]

JJRicks showed over 100 unprotected lefts so I'm sure there were some more interesting ones.

I appreciate your effort, but none of those are as complex as the one through cross traffic on a curved road that I posted.

The one that you consider obstructed isn't at all. The sensors are high up and can see over the compact car ahead.

 

[StealthLSU]

My point is that just because they are commercial only and geofenced does not make then less than state of the art. They are still state of the art because they are the most advanced autonomous driving we have.

yes and no. Because of how it all works, I'd say they are the most state of the art in parts of Phoenix.

For many of us, if you live nearly anywhere else in the country, they are not the most state of the art anymore since you have 0 access to them. In TX, Tesla is the most state of the art.

So for people who live outside of the small areas that they operate, it is just theoretical, like it works in a test lab but not in the real world to them.

I am hopeful that all these companies advance(expand) and bring autonomous driving everywhere and can directly compete against each other. But it is just going to take time.

 

[diplomat33]

yes and no. Because of how it all works, I'd say they are the most state of the art in parts of Phoenix.

For many of us, if you live nearly anywhere else in the country, they are not the most state of the art anymore since you have 0 access to them. In TX, Tesla is the most state of the art.

So for people who live outside of the small areas that they operate, it is just theoretical, like it works in a test lab but not in the real world to them.

I am hopeful that all these companies advance(expand) and bring autonomous driving everywhere and can directly compete against each other. But it is just going to take time.

The question is what is the current state of the art in autonomous driving, just speaking from a purely technological perspective. Basically, we are just asking what is the most advanced autonomous driving currently. I am arguing that L4 is the current state of the art in autonomous driving. Why? Because the most advanced autonomous driving that we have right now is the L4 robotaxis we see from Waymo, Cruise, Baidu, Mobileye etc... Obviously, not everybody has access to the state of the art but that does not make it less state of the art.

And Tesla has the state of the art in driver assist tech. But Tesla does not have the state of the art in autonomous driving since FSD Beta is not autonomous.

 

[EVNow]

I am arguing that L4 is the current state of the art in autonomous driving.

The correct answer would be severely geofenced L4. But - if you are not within that fence, L2 it is.

Afterall autonomous trains have been running for decades.

ps : Anotherway of looking at it is - if there is some tech that exists only in the lab, is that really state of the art for everyone ?

 

[Bitdepth]

The correct answer would be severely geofenced L4. But - if you are not within that fence, L2 it is.

Afterall autonomous trains have been running for decades.

ps : Anotherway of looking at it is - if there is some tech that exists only in the lab, is that really state of the art for everyone ?

Yes, tech that exists in the lab is still state of the art to where that particular industry is. Having a consumer product is not a prerequisite. You are adding lots of unnecessary prerequisites. The state of the art of autonomous driving is L4. What consumers are currently using en mass is L1 (cruise control) not L2 but that is not the state of the art in automated driving systems.

adjective

1. Belonging or relating to the most recent stage of technological development; having or using the latest techniques or equipment.

2. The level of development (as of a device, procedure, process, technique, or science) reached at any particular time usually as a result of modern methods.

3. The state of the art refers to the highest level of general development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field achieved at a particular time.

 

[EVNow]

Yes, tech that exists in the lab is still state of the art to where that particular industry is.

That’s not how it’s used. Otherwise the state of the art battery would be some unviable solid state battery that won’t see production for a decade.

 

[Bitdepth]

That’s not how it’s used. Otherwise the state of the art battery would be some unviable solid state battery that won’t see production for a decade.

And the state of the art in driving automation is a Corolla with a L1 cruise control, that's what most people have isn't it?

 

[Bladerskb]

I don’t consider severely geofenced ones as anything more than demo. Besides I was really referring to consumer cars.

BTW, there are such services in China too with larger service areas than what Waymo does, IIRC. The driving conditions are also more complex. It’s just the normal American hubris that makes us not talk about them here.

Self-driving robotaxis are taking off in China

The world has been inching toward fully autonomous cars for years. In China, one company just got even closer to making it a reality.

www.cnn.com

AutoX already has more than 100 robotaxis deployed in five Chinese cities, including Shanghai and Wuhan. Over the next year, it aims to double its reach to more than 10 local cities. Whether the company can pull humans from behind the wheel in other markets depends on local regulators, Xiao said.

Most of these are bus routes deployment. For example baidu. They pale in comparison to what Waymo is doing in phoenix. It’s not even in the same galaxy.

 

[Bladerskb]

The correct answer would be severely geofenced L4. But - if you are not within that fence, L2 it is.

Afterall autonomous trains have been running for decades.

ps : Anotherway of looking at it is - if there is some tech that exists only in the lab, is that really state of the art for everyone ?

I didn’t know trains could maneuver around and through traffic, objects and pedestrians, anticipating other road users and where they will be in the future and using that to fit into gaps and maneuvering around them, etc.

You are no different than the Tesla fan who came on the self driving cars subreddit saying that Waymo is a glorified AEB system.
Which i guess is his attempt just like your to call Waymo a train. But the funny thing is that even AEB is more advanced than a train.
The equivalent of a train in a car is L1 cruise control. Good to know that Tesla fans view Waymo as old fashion bottom of the barrel cruise control.

 

[Doggydogworld]

BTW, there are such services in China too with larger service areas than what Waymo does, IIRC.

What services? I agree China is pushing hard and their self-driving companies tend to get ignored here in the US. But last I checked AutoX still had safety drivers for public rides. Baidu's service area was tiny. Didi recently got permission to test on six roads in Beijing with total length of 143 km (Waymo covers a couple thousand kms in AZ). WeRide and Pony.AI are probably the most advanced, and test over pretty large areas, but I don't know of them offering a public service that rivals Waymo's in Phoenix.

That’s not how it’s used. Otherwise the state of the art battery would be some unviable solid state battery that won’t see production for a decade.

Dragon on a Falcon 9 isn't state of the art because I'd have to go to Florida? The NASA Ames subsonic wind tunnel isn't state of the art because it's not in my backyard? A femtosecond laser to expose electrodes implanted for deep-brain stimulation or epileptic seizure location isn't state of the art because it's at Mayo Clinic instead of my local hospital?

Who else uses your definition for state-of-the-art? I don't recall any examples.

Really? Can you link the most complex unprotected left you've seen from his vids?

I've seen lots of lefts that were not protected against oncoming traffic, but never one with multiple lanes of high speed road cross traffic e.g. the Chuck Cook test. That's a very difficult (and dangerous) test.

This turn did have multiple "lanes" of cross traffic without protection, but it was a low speed parking lot vs a real road.

 

[EVNow]

What services?

I linked to an article from last year - that said 100 robotaxis in 5 cities. Looks better than Waymo to me.

Dragon on a Falcon 9 isn't state of the art because I'd have to go to Florida?

It wouldn't be if the final deployment target is your rooftop

State of the art - is usually referred to latest "production" version. Not a lab version.

Waymo is what you'd consider a "pilot" - just like FSD Beta is today (or more accurately yesterday).

 

[Doggydogworld]

I linked to an article from last year - that said 100 robotaxis in 5 cities. Looks better than Waymo to me.

Waymo has ~700 vehicles in 25 cities.

But this comparison was about public Robotaxi service area. As far as I can tell, AutoX does not provide public taxi services without safety drivers at all. So it's 0 vehicles for 0 square miles vs. maybe a couple dozen covering 50 square miles for Waymo.

 

[EVNow]

Waymo has ~700 vehicles in 25 cities.

But this comparison was about public Robotaxi service area. As far as I can tell, AutoX does not provide public taxi services without safety drivers at all. So it's 0 vehicles for 0 square miles vs. maybe a couple dozen covering 50 square miles for Waymo.

Self-driving robotaxis are taking off in China

The world has been inching toward fully autonomous cars for years. In China, one company just got even closer to making it a reality.

www.cnn.com

AutoX already has more than 100 robotaxis deployed in five Chinese cities, including Shanghai and Wuhan. Over the next year, it aims to double its reach to more than 10 local cities. Whether the company can pull humans from behind the wheel in other markets depends on local regulators, Xiao said.
In Shanghai, its vehicles are available to public users, who can hail them through Alibaba's Autonavi app, a Chinese mapping app.

ps : I've not spent more than 5 minutes on this. We I get more time - I'll search more and try to figure out the "state-of-the-art" of Chinese AV pilot programs

pps : State of the art has (as you would guess) several meanings, depending on context. I was using it more in the way its used in marketing of consumer products - which usually means the best available for people to purchase. Has a very similar meaning in Tort law. But quite a bit different meaning in Patent law.

State of the art - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Doggydogworld]

Self-driving robotaxis are taking off in China

The world has been inching toward fully autonomous cars for years. In China, one company just got even closer to making it a reality.

www.cnn.com

ps : I've not spent more than 5 minutes on this. We I get more time - I'll search more and try to figure out the "state-of-the-art" of Chinese AV pilot programs

You keep linking this article, but did you actually read it?

"In Shenzhen, AutoX has completely removed the backup driver or any remote operators for its local fleet of 25 cars, it said."
"The new initiative is still in trial mode and not currently open to the public. That likely won't change anytime soon, according to Xiao, who said that he hoped to obtain permission to expand the program to regular passengers in the next two or three years."

"AutoX already has more than 100 robotaxis deployed in five Chinese cities, including Shanghai and Wuhan. .... Whether the company can pull humans from behind the wheel in other markets depends on local regulators, Xiao said."

So they have not pulled safety drivers in other markets, such as Shanghai and Wuhan.

"In Shanghai, its vehicles are available to public users, who can hail them through Alibaba's Autonavi app, a Chinese mapping app."

Shanghai has a public service with safety drivers. Shenzhen has a private trial without safety drivers. Where is the public service without safety drivers, like Waymo in Chandler? I can't find it.

 

[willow_hiller]

In case others haven't seen this article yet: Dead-End SF Street Plagued With Confused WayMo Cars Trying To Turn Around 'Every 5 Minutes'

A mislabeled map is probably my guess? The weirdest part is that Waymo seemed unaware of the situation; you think with the size of their fleet they'd be able to keep a watch on all of the vehicles and would notice a queue of them in an otherwise quiet neighborhood.

KPIX 5 reached out to WayMo who responded by asking for more information about the neighbors’ concerns and the specific location of the circling cars. As of airtime, they had not yet provided any explanation.

 

[powertoold]

Waymo seemed unaware of the situation; you think with the size of their fleet they'd be able to keep a watch on all of the vehicles and would notice a queue of them in an otherwise quiet neighborhood.

After the cone fiasco and rogue Waymo running away from roadside assistance, anything is possible. That cone incident was a huge fail in many areas.

In the same vein as the Google self driving car project, where the employees didn't pay attention, I wonder if Waymo is starting to realize that remote assistance is going to be unreliable when shat hits the fan (just as their employees were unreliable in supervising their L2 cars). If this is the case, then their whole approach is DoA.

 

[diplomat33]

In case others haven't seen this article yet: Dead-End SF Street Plagued With Confused WayMo Cars Trying To Turn Around 'Every 5 Minutes'

A mislabeled map is probably my guess? The weirdest part is that Waymo seemed unaware of the situation; you think with the size of their fleet they'd be able to keep a watch on all of the vehicles and would notice a queue of them in an otherwise quiet neighborhood.

I don't think it is a mislabeled map. Waymo has the ability to automatically update the maps over the air for the entire fleet. Just a couple Waymos would see the dead end and send an update. So if it was a mislabeled map, it would be fixed pretty quickly.

As I posted in the "autonomous driving progress" thread, it is probably part of some testing. Maybe Waymo needs to collect data or is testing something specific on that road. Or, maybe that dead end is the end of their planned testing route. That would explain why every car seems to go there. Also, there are no passengers so we know it is not part of the regular ride-hailing. Further proof that it is part of their testing IMO.

Also, remember that we don't have any context. We just have people telling the news media that they are seeing lots of Waymos go down their dead end street. We don't know why. I think we should wait for some official word from Waymo.