Waymo

[Doggydogworld]

The white SUV comes to a stop, presumably signaling (the video is of such poor quality it is hard to tell).

The SUV does NOT turn, in spite of there being no obvious traffic. This gives a clue.

It gives a clue that the oncoming car is going straight and the white SUV is yielding. If the oncoming car turns the white SUV is also free to turn.

At this point I have released the accelerator and am in regen before entering the intersection. Who knows what is obscured? At least bleed off a few mph!

You release the accelerator to position your foot over the brake. Waymo doesn't need to do that.

I also think the reaction was surprisingly slow given the superhuman response time that should be available to the Waymo Driver. I don't know why you'd path adjust before you started bleeding a lot of speed. There must be reasons but it seems non-optimal for a human driver response.

It looks to me like braking and steering happened simultaneously, a fraction of a second after the green path started to bend. There is latency in perception (e.g. 33 ms for 30 fps video) then additional latency in planner processing then finally latency in the electro-mechanical steering and brake actuators. With a decent quality YouTube we could go one frame at a time and measure things, but this blurry, jerky Twitter feed is useless.

 

[flutas]

Random thing I learned today, and honestly it makes a lot of the commercial aspects of Waymo make so much more sense.

Google doesn't actually run the commercial entity side of Waymo. Transdev does.

Robotaxis
Waymo – USA
Management of an on-demand fleet of robotaxis

Since 2019, Transdev, through its American subsidiary Transdev Alternative Services, has been testing, deploying, and operating Waymo’s robotaxi fleets (a subsidiary of Alphabet – Google) in four major cities in the United States (including Phoenix, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Austin).

Though this does have me wondering why they are using both older and newer SW versions than Waymo ever discloses. (Transdev shows incidents with version 7, 8, and 9, of Waymo 5th gen, Waymo only shows 8.)

 

[Bitdepth]

Random thing I learned today, and honestly it makes a lot of the commercial aspects of Waymo make so much more sense.

Google doesn't actually run the commercial entity side of Waymo. Transdev does.



Though this does have me wondering why they are using both older and newer SW versions than Waymo ever discloses. (Transdev shows incidents with version 7, 8, and 9, of Waymo 5th gen, Waymo only shows 8.)

Transdev is a subcontractor that provides test drivers they are not running the commercial aspects of Waymo.

Waymo Sees Human Drivers in Autonomous Cars for Foreseeable Future | Transport Topics

Alphabet Inc.’s Waymo took a big step forward last fall when it began ferrying riders around the Phoenix area in robotaxis without human safety drivers. Humans have been behind the wheel for almost all of the 20 million miles of testing the company says it has completed on public roads.

www.ttnews.com

The driverless rides in Arizona don’t mean the end for Waymo’s human operators. Last summer, the company quietly finalized a multiyear contract with Transdev North America, which provides bus drivers, streetcar conductors and other transportation workers to airports and cities. The partnership is an acknowledgment that Waymo will be relying on test drivers for many years to come.

Rather than supply Waymo with contractors for its driving operations, the deal provides test-driving as a service—a subtle but key distinction. Transdev replaces a handful of staffing companies that have subcontracted drivers to Waymo. Under those previous arrangements, drivers could work for only two years at a time with six-month breaks between stints — a rule meant to shield Waymo from claims that it was their employer. The partnership puts more legal space between the drivers and Waymo, allowing them to stay on indefinitely, as employees of Transdev.

 

[Dewg]

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Guess this made it to some AI boards.

 

[JulienW]

Guess this made it to some AI boards.

Good guess since it already MADE it to this very thread on Tuesday.

Waymo

So it's a swiss-cheese kind of failure, where all the systems that did make mistakes had to line up in just the right ways: It’s a well-worn observation that commercial plane crashes are typically due to about seven coincidental and compounding failures. As AVs become more and more reliable, we...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[EVNow]

Going 35 mph is not "flying" in my book.

I think going 35 in a 35 road at that intersection is definitely not what I'd do. Unless I've clear visibility I definitely slow down.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Guess this made it to some AI boards.

Yes we just had several pages of discussion about the very unnatural behavior of the Waymo, which led to a very close call, which was avoided by both the Waymo and (required) the at-fault driver to also take evasive action (otherwise there would have been a crash).

This is a clear example of how competent human drivers can still outperform Waymo in spite of Waymo’s sensor and reaction advantages. It’s pretty amazing.

As Elon says, the best evasive action is no evasive action. All (steering) input is error.

The first reaction of an experienced (expert) driver I know with a 35-year accident-free driving career was that this was reckless (by the Waymo which was most definitely not at fault in any way).

 

[SidetrackedSue]

The first reaction of an experienced (expert) driver I know with a 35-year accident-free driving career was that this was reckless (by the Waymo which was most definitely not at fault in any way).

Actually... if this is the 'expert' you are referring to, what you shared is not clear that he was saying the Waymo was reckless.

You ask, "what are your thoughts on this Waymo clip?" and he answers, "OMG that's reckless driving." Not, OMG that's reckless driving by Waymo." He could have been saying it was reckless drivng by the car that turned into the intersection without knowing if the path was clear (generously assuming that driver never saw the Waymo behind the SUV.)

While I agree you didn't prejudice your friend's response, you did allow your prejudice to assume that your friend was referring to the Waymo when it was not explicitly stated.

I asked another person who I know who is a good defensive driver, and he thought it was awful too. I was careful not to prejudice him. Good to know I'm not insane. View attachment 1057679

 

[JulienW]

Almost EVERY person will be driving 40 to 45 MPH on that WIDE STRAIGHT stroad. If you were driving there it would "feel" slow as hell at 35MPH. Also people do NOT slow down 10MPH to 20MPH at every single intersection, especially on stroads. So the Waymo was driving slower than the VAST majority of people would be driving on that stroad and through the intersection.

We can't objectively watch the video now since we KNOW the car is going to turn. But if you drive down a stroad through intersection after intersection after intersection after intersection....NO WAY would you be slowing, tensing and expecting a car to turn in front of you at EVERY intersection.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

you did allow your prejudice to assume that your friend was referring to the Waymo when it was not explicitly stated.

I knew what he was talking about. It's not complicated! Just emulate driving the way you would, really feel it in your bones, and then you'd realize there's a major pucker factor here.

Almost EVERY person will be driving 40 to 45 MPH on that WIDE STRAIGHT stroad.

Once again, it's very hard to judge from a video. Drive it yourself and report back. Feel it.

We can't objectively watch the video now since we KNOW the car is going to turn. But if you drive down a stroad through intersection after intersection after intersection after intersection....NO WAY would you be slowing, tensing and expecting a car to turn in front of you at EVERY intersection.

No, of course not. No one is saying that is the correct way to drive this road. That would be crazy and disconcerting.

 

[Yelobird]

I knew what he was talking about. It's not complicated! Just emulate driving the way you would, really feel it in your bones, and then you'd realize there's a major pucker factor here.

View attachment 1058857

Once again, it's very hard to judge from a video. Drive it yourself and report back. Feel it.


No, of course not. No one is saying that is the correct way to drive this road. That would be crazy and disconcerting.

Can only say “leading the witness” foul. Second, a buddy you know provides little to no proof they are an Experienced Expert driver. All it says to me is you introduced a friend who likes to agree with you and follow your very clear directing of the story and where you wanted them to go. Not having an accident in 35 years means nothing. My father in law hasn’t either in 70 years and he’s a crappy driver.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Can only say “leading the witness” foul.

How?

 

[Yelobird]

How?

They simply acknowledged reckless, you directed the story to focus on the visibility issue which they took as the lead to focus on the Waymo. Just my opinion. Again, they add little value to the end story.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

They simply acknowledged reckless, you directed the story to focus on the visibility issue which they took as the lead to focus on the Waymo. Just my opinion. Again, they add little value to the end story.

Huh? This makes zero sense. They were talking about the Waymo. Period. The only relevant piece of information is their first reaction, that's why that's all I posted (note I did not post the second thing I posted). Which matched my reaction (and I think the reaction of many (possibly even most) readers here, too, based on the responses).

 

[cwerdna]

Not sure if this has been posted yet:

CA regulator re-affirms decision to allow Waymo to expand to rest of SF Peninsula

Driverless taxi company, Waymo, was once again given the green light by state regulators to begin picking up passengers on the rest of the peninsula. On Thursday, The California Public Utilities Commission reaffirmed its decision from May to let Waymo expand beyond San Francisco to San Mateo County.

www.ktvu.com

California Approves Waymo's Expansion Beyond San Francisco

The California Public Utilities Commission has upheld its March decision to approve Waymo's expansion from San Francisco to San Mateo County and Los Angeles over protests from local officials.

www.govtech.com

 

[kabin]

We recently took our first Waymo One ride and were pleasantly surprised. It felt safe and there were no issues. Out of curiosity I checked the wheels and there were no signs of curb rash.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

I knew what he was talking about. It's not complicated! Just emulate driving the way you would, really feel it in your bones, and then you'd realize there's a major pucker factor here.

Again, you are reading something that isn't there into my comment. I never disagreed with your opinion that the Waymo was not driving defensively. I agree completely with your description of how you'd approach that intersection and would do the same.

And I'm sure your friend was referring to the Waymo as reckless. But that isn't what your friend explicitly said in the first quote you posted. So presenting just that as 'proof' your experienced driver friend agreed with you was also reckless.

Defensive driving, an example of which is treating that intersection the way you describe, has played a big role in me driving for almost 4 decades with no collisions. Other drivers driving defensively the times I've messed up have helped me maintain my record and I'm truly thankful for them. No-one is perfect 100% of the time but if we all are attempting to drive defensively all the time, we can help save others when they mess up. And save ourselves the costs (physical, financial, and through lost time) of an accident. You may 'save' someone else from having a collision but defensive driving saves you a lot too. Plus the 'no excess speed' part of defensive driving (leave enough time and room to steer away from trouble) saves on the cost of moving violation fines, especially now with the red-light and speed zone fines in my area. Now not slowing down because there's no cop in sight isn't going to avoid the fines to the registered owner of the car, who will pass them on to you.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So presenting just that as 'proof' your experienced driver friend agreed with you was also reckless.

I deliberately left out the rest making it clear what he was talking about just to avoid the nonsense a few posts back. Apparently there was no way to win.

I figured since I was saying that he was talking about the Waymo, people would just believe me. I don’t see why they wouldn’t (or why anyone would read anything into that comment other than a reference to the Waymo, to be honest).

 

[clydeiii]

I hate to agree with Subie since he hates AI, but I agree, the Waymo should be driving more defensively in that situation.

I also agree with the leading the witness claim. Also the witness could hate AI as much as Subie does, and would thus be biased (even if correct in this example). It is also too small a sample size. You’d need to poll hundreds of drivers to get any real meaningful assessment of whether humans think the Waymo example is reckless.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

since he hates AI

I don’t hate AI. It is a remarkable brute force tool which is useful in many areas today and shows promise elsewhere. It’s pretty exciting.

It’s far from clear it will work for autonomous driving without further breakthroughs.

leading the witness claim.

I just cannot fathom how what I posted (note again that I did not post the second thing I posted) when the response was “reckless driving” can be taken as leading the witness.