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What charge port connector?

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The charging engineer I spoke with (and I kinda gave him a hard time) was quite clear that the signaling was not CAN based like CHAdeMO, though he wouldn't specify what scheme they were using. A CHAdeMO adapter would be possible but you'd need to translate the signaling. It, however, does have the same signaling as J1772 for Level 1,2 charging, just like the Roadster.

I bet they are using the new SAE DC charging protocol. It doesn't require extra pins like ChadeMo.

GSP

Edit: Info on SAE DC charging protocol:

http://ev.sae.org/article/10128

"SAE J1772 goes further still by uniquely defining communications between an EV/PHEV, off-board charger, and the smart grid. Power Line Communications (PLC) is defined in SAE J1772 as the technology for enabling these vehicle-to-grid communications, without requiring changes such as the addition of another pin to the coupler architecture.

That's where IEEE comes in. PLC implementations from both the HD-PLC Alliance and HomePlug Powerline Alliance are based on IEEE 1901-2010, the world's most mature, robust, and advanced Broadband over Powerline standard. And the IEEE 1901 Inter-System Protocol prevents interference when the different PLC implementations are operated within close proximity of one another."
 
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I bet they are using the new SAE DC charging protocol. It doesn't require extra pins like ChadeMo.

GSP

You know, I think you're right. In a slightly different context that same charging engineer mentioned PLC. So maybe they're waiting for the details of the SAE protocol to be worked out. That would explain a lot. When I asked to see the 90kW charger the guys I spoke to implied it was held together with bailing wire and duct tape. So for the Beta event they had nine 10kW chargers rigged together and likely plugged it in through the trunk with the cabling seen here.
 
Because specific adapters haven't been announced yet? It will take some time until Model S will be sold in the UK, and while in the US there aren't any fast chargers yet (except maybe a handful), a CHAdeMO adapter will likely be asked for in the US as well. (It will also still take a while until Nissan brings the less expensive $10k charger to Europe and the US, since they want to start in Japan.)

They are bringing the less expensive one here in January.

Good for the Leaf. I don't think that is a competitive problem for Tesla.


That's not my point. There will be lots of these cheap chargers on the ground by the time the S arrives. Don't forget that Nissan are working with Siemens to do this, so they will likely not even be Nissan branded and certainly will not be at Nissan locations.

Also as CHAdeMO can support 200A at >500V it would make sense if Tesla pushed the consortium to make the chargers take full advantage of the specification.
 
I think Tesla is still working out the details of their DC charging, but will likely have an adapter for CHAdeMO. You know the Europeans are also working on a combo version of the Mennekes connector which will probably have the same signaling as the SAE J1772 combo. So if the EU goes that way they'll also need a CHAdeMO adapter, unless the CHAdeMOs get changed over.

I'd be more concerned on the AC side, since the otherwise awesome connector Tesla has shown is incapable of delivering 3-phase.
 
That's not my point.

I know, I have already said that I'm in favor of a CHAdeMo adapter, and like Doug I consider it likely.

Also as CHAdeMO can support 200A at >500V it would make sense if Tesla pushed the consortium to make the chargers take full advantage of the specification.

Or ask Nissan to use the Tesla connector. ;) Actually, seriously. I also think that SAE should consider using Tesla's connector, they don't have a backwards compatibility problem. I'm sure the optional CHAdeMO ports on the Leaf could also be retrofitted, or at least replaced, with Tesla plugs. Not sure if that has a better chance than a snowball in hell, but the Tesla connector appears much better, so I think that's the direction to take.

Fast chargers and their connectors don't have to look like gas-pump wannabes.
 
I know, I have already said that I'm in favor of a CHAdeMo adapter, and like Doug I consider it likely.
I hope so


Or ask Nissan to use the Tesla connector. ;) Actually, seriously. I also think that SAE should consider using Tesla's connector, they don't have a backwards compatibility problem. I'm sure the optional CHAdeMO ports on the Leaf could also be retrofitted, or at least replaced, with Tesla plugs. Not sure if that has a better chance than a snowball in hell, but the Tesla connector appears much better, so I think that's the direction to take.

Fast chargers and their connectors don't have to look like gas-pump wannabes.
Why another new connector? If we want the adoption of EV's to speed up we do not need even more standards! I already feel stupid when I have to tell people a 100 k Roadster cant do fast charging like the Leaf...

Again, the Mennekes connector does everything we want. AC with 70 A single phase and also 63 A 3 phase, but also DC for fast charging.

Standards, OPEN standards, thát is what we need!
 
Good points.
Two years ago I saw JB give this talk during which he showed this slide:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2931&d=1317772965

Concluding that most the time spent charging was using the MC120 (not called the spare connector) and thus 120V, 12A was good enough for most folks. Can anyone remember why this data might be biased?

Depending on when the data was collected, it may have only included the first 200 owners, which I'm sure would skew the data because all of those Roadsters included an HPC, and I'll bet that group has different demographics than the larger owner community. I'm a little surprised there isn't a bigger spike at 40A for all the Roadster owners who saved half the cost of an HPC by getting an MC240 or UMC for charging in their garage and on the road. That does make it look like the data is exclusively or mostly from the very early Roadster owners.

Regardless, the data has very limited utility. Data doesn't lie, but people can easily draw wrong conclusions from it.

The chart tells us nothing about how any individual owner charges their car. It also only shows how people charge given what the Roadster allows, the cost of the various charging units, the state of public charging infrastructure, and how those together limit what's practical and convenient.

From the chart, it's easy to conclude that about half of Roadster charging is done with a 70A HPC with the car set to take all 70A. Does that mean people need 70A charging in their garage? Definitely not, that's just what happens if you buy an HPC, throw it on the wall and plug the car in without thinking about any possible benefits of charging at a lower current setting. However, some of the 70A charging is happening on longer road trips where 70A is critical. That chart doesn't give us any idea how often owners would benefit from even faster charging. It also doesn't tell us how often the Roadster gets left in the garage because of a lack of available public charging at sufficient rates to not be a huge pain.

The chart shows a big chunk of charging at 120V/12A. How many owners were satisfied with 120V charging? What portion of that is because people were pissed that Tesla changed the HPC from included in the base price to a $3,000 add-on? How many owners were waiting for the MC240 or UMC be become available? What portion is due to owners not having access to 240V where they park their car? What portion of that is people going on road trips and getting by just fine on 120V charging?

We got our LEAF two weeks ago and just got our J1772 charging station installed and inspected today. We've been charging on 120V and it's been totally adequate. It would be even easier with the Roadster where I could do my normal 20-to-40 mile daily driving and get charged overnight. If I do a long 150-mile drive, I can still add 40 to 50 miles of charge overnight and have plenty for typical drives until I build back up to a full charge over the next several days. Does that mean 120V would work for every Roadster owner? Definitely not.

To be clear, I'm really disappointed that the LEAF has an anemic 3.3 kW on-board charger. I think it's stupid they didn't max it out at the full 19.2 kW that the J1772 standard supports. With that, you could charge a LEAF faster than a Roadster from just a simple, cheap Level 2 station.

I think it's much more interesting to look at the charging behavior of a single owner, so how about me? To create the following chart, I used the new data aggregation feature added by my log parser that RichKae is using to collect data for his battery longevity study.

charge_amps_histogram.png


The above chart shows the number of hours spent charging at different current levels, with 120V showing at half the amperage, including time spent with the current tapering off near the top of a charge, over a period of 2 years and 19,000 miles. If you want to play along, look at the chart and see what you can tell about how we charge our Roadster. Below, I'll tell you what the chart means and what it doesn't say.

We used to charge at 40A at home because that was more than fast enough for overnight charging while staying away from low current levels that are less efficient, and it reduced the load on our panel. We've owned a RAV4-EV since 2008, and we generally set timers so we don't charge both at the same time, but lowering the Roadster's current level to 40A means we're using less than 70A even if the Roadster and RAV are charging at the same time.

After I did my analysis of charge rates and efficiency, I concluded that charging at 32A had nearly the same efficiency as higher current levels, was still plenty fast, and further reduced the load on our panel, and was maybe a tiny bit nicer to the battery pack.

In all this time, I've only charged our Roadster at home at 70A once, for the charging efficiency study. (We have used it to charge the Roadsters of friends passing through town on long trips, our quiet contribution to charging infrastructure, but that's not reflected on the chart.) So basically, the 70A charging is all on road trips.

But the spike at 70A only tells part of the road trip story.

Some of the 40A charging is on the road, some of which was fine at 40A getting us charged while we did something fun, some of it was painful, killing time at an RV park.

The 70A spike doesn't tell you that driving from Seattle to Portland used to be painful, requiring staying in the right lane to do 55-60 mph while dodging the big trucks. That drive got so much more pleasant when we got an HPC installed at the midpoint of the drive at the Burgerville in Centralia. Now we can blast down the road at whatever speed is appropriate, pop into Burgerville for a quick bite and 20 minutes of charging, then cruise the rest of the way to Portland with no SOC stress. With a bit longer stay, we could even do the drive comfortably with a standard mode charge.

The charts says nothing about how adding a 70A HPC in Ellensburg made the 310-mile drive from Seattle to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, very doable with just a long lunch break partway through the drive. It would be even better with another charging opportunity between Ellensburg and Spokane.

The charts also says nothing about all of the road trips we just don't even consider in the Roadster because of charging stations we don't have. If we want to do a drive like that, we need to rent gas-burner. Tesla seems to think the range on the Roadster is so large that no one needs to charge away from home. That's true for most people's daily driving, but it's just not true if you want an electric car to completely replace a gas car.

The Roadster is not a great car for long drives. The ride is rough and noisy. The passenger doesn't benefit from the fun driving factor, making the car less suitable for long drives with someone else. I assume the Model S will be much better as a car, especially for the passengers, so road trips will be even more constrained by charging infrastructure. Tesla has to get this right, and they won't get it if they just look at aggregate Roadster data and ignore what Roadster owners tell them we want.

I think the 10 kW on-board charger option is dumb. Although most everyone will be totally happy with 10 kW at home, especially with the big battery pack that can handle occasional long drives and still be fine for the next drive even if not fully charged the first night back home. The Model S seems like it will be a great road trip car, even with base 160-mile battery. You only get the advantage of the big battery once per day, after that it's all about charge rate. Tesla will not be able to cover the whole country with quick chargers along the route to every small isolated community where people have friends and relatives they want to visit. For those trips, owners will want the maximum charge rate possible and it will always be easier to fund maxed out Level 2 chargers than DC fast chargers at strategic spots. It'll just make owners mad if they get the 10 kW on-board charger and then want to drive somewhere not covered by Tesla's promised fast charge network.
 
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I totally agree with Tom.
One concept I believe is important is something I call "plug-hours" ( or plug-minutes ). Any given plug has 24 plug hours in a day. An individual user may have 4 hours to spend charging and need 24 kW and is happy to charge at 6kW for those 4 hours, it makes no difference to him if he charges at 12kW for 2 hours instead. However they have used 4 plug hours, when they could have used 2. Someone else has been frozen out of that spot for all of those 4 hours and it wasn't necessary.
Slow level 2 chargers suck, slow charging cars in a fast level 2 charger suck even more.

Even if a network of level 3 chargers blankets the country every 100 miles or so on the interstate, there will always be a place for fast level 2 charging.
A 70-80 amp level 2 charger is really only a couple hundred dollars worth of wire, circuit breaker and connector, they will always be at least an order of magnitude cheaper than a level 3 charger.
For small fleets, private networks/businesses, they are the cheap way to extend the network.
If I am on a long trip and I can choose between a 1.5 hour level 2 charge in the parking lot of a restaurant where I want to eat, and a 30 minute level 3 charge in a rest stop where there is nothing to do - I will choose the level 2 charge. The goal is that you charge when you need to stop, not stop when you need to charge.

If by the time my Model S is ready there are level 3 chargers every 100 miles where I think I want to go - I may still want 20 kW of level 2 charging available in my car.
 
I agree with both Tom and Rich,

The problem will be as I have shown in other threads, that nobody will produce a higher power EVSE'S if there are not cars that will accept them. In my letters to Eaton, it was apparent that they had at least some prior knowledge to stop their planned production of 70 amp EVSE'S . The only manufacturer of high power level2 EVSE'S is Clipper Creek.

Expansion of the 70 amp EVSE'S will require;
1. People to order cars that require or can utilize their potential
2. Manufacturers to produce and deploy high power level2 EVSE'S
3. The DCPower level3 charging network to not be deployed adequately
4 Owners to drive their cars farther than their home charging range

I believe that Tesla is looking at the level3 network as an income stream. I don't expect level 3charging to be free!
 
I believe that Tesla is looking at the level3 network as an income stream. I don't expect level 3charging to be free!

I think they will have a hard time generating income with it.
If I do a 1-2 week long road trip from Seattle to SoCal, I'll need to use the level3 chargers about 6 times round trip.
If I do that twice a year, thats a total of 12 times. I don't anticipate needing fast charging for any weekend getaway - not with 320 miles range.
If they bill too much for the charge, then the lamestream media will be all over them saying that electric isn't cheaper than gas.

I think the government is going to screw up the "public charging network" so badly that there will be room for private charging networks - and they should consider a membership fee and a really low per charge cost.
 
At $40000 each, and 10 cents to 28 cents per KWh plus instalation, maintenance and ground lease. I don't expect them to be free for long.

How about a poll....... What would you expect to pay to fully charge your 90 KW battery in the S assuming the above?
 
How about a poll....... What would you expect to pay to fully charge your 90 KW battery in the S assuming the above?

For the occasional road trip, I don't mind paying a premium. Here in Ontario an 80% charge would be $10 of electricity. I'd happily pay $20, because gas would have cost twice that. I'd tolerate $30 but I'd wonder about it. $40 would definitely be gouging; at that point I might as well bring an ICE instead.

On the topic of subscriptions, I am vehemently opposed to the concept. Look what is happening in the UK. You sign onto one network and pay a monthly subscription, and you still can't travel around efficiently because the networks are too sparse and you can only access a small fraction of the chargers out there because they're all on different networks. You don't want to pay three, four, five subscriptions! Plus why would I want to pay by subscription when on a daily basis I simply don't need charging infrastructure. I charge in my garage. What I need is charging infrastructure on highways, to facilitate road trips and completely eliminate the need for owning an ICE vehicle.
 
I agree that the subscription model is offensive.
I just dont see a good business model in fast charging at all, I think it has to operate as a loss leader - at least for a long time because of the chicken and egg problem.

There are only 2 groups that are interested in operating fast charging:

#1 is the government and they will screw it up. They are either incompetent ( hello 30amp level 2 charging ), or they are being sabotaged by the ICE interests. I think both.

#2 are the EV manufacturers themselves. Tesla and Nissan.

A fast charging network helps them sell cars. They can try to save their own money and hope the government does it and not screw it up - but that is a dangerous game. Unfortunately it is a much more dangerous game for Tesla than Nissan. They have much much more to lose.

Luckily, 100 chargers at $20,000 each is only $2 million. They need willing hosts to shoulder the costs of individual installations.