What charge port connector?

[dadaleus]

A Tesla employee who would know told me at the LA rally that the S will have an entirely new connector that 'will blow your mind.' He said it's smaller than the Roadster connector and incorporates both DC quick charge and J1772 standards in one port, using adapters to those charge stations.

Presumably at home you'd have a native cable for this new port, and you'd have to carry adapters for charge stations.

Mixed feelings: I hoped to be done with adapters now that J1772 is standard, but if their port is easier and lighter that's nice too.

 

[doug]

incorporates both DC quick charge and J1772 standards in one port, using adapters to those charge stations.

I've heard similar things, but as I mentioned in another thread, in Europe the use of adapters is not allowed. I'm still hoping they came up with a modular solution so the port is swapped out for the region appropriate connector.

 

[dsm363]

I've heard similar things, but as I mentioned in another thread, in Europe the use of adapters is not allowed. I'm still hoping they came up with a modular solution so the port is swapped out for the region appropriate connector.

Exactly. Any adapter that hangs down from the car like the current J1772 adapter will not work with the general public.

 

[GSP]

An hour is exactly the appropriate amount of time to have lunch or dinner, and a reasonable time for an average appointment or meeting. An hour is *exactly* the target charging time. Longer than an hour is too long; but if you get the charging time down to an hour with 400 miles driving in between, don't worry too much about getting the charge time lower.

My sentiments exactly. EV do not have to be the same as gas cars, just like gas cars did not have to be the same as horses or donkeys. One hour is the appropriate fast charge time. With a 300 mile Model S, you can drive for 250 miles, fast charge, and repeat. An easy 500 mile day. You can even fast charge again and drive a third 250 miles. This 750 mile day is the limit of most human's endurance, so it will match any gas car without charging in less than one hour.

GSP

 

[Norbert]

A Tesla employee who would know told me at the LA rally that the S will have an entirely new connector that 'will blow your mind.' He said it's smaller than the Roadster connector and incorporates both DC quick charge and J1772 standards in one port, using adapters to those charge stations.

Both in one, and still smaller than the Roadster connector? I certainly like this aspect of it. The smaller, the better.

 

[doug]

Exactly. Any adapter that hangs down from the car like the current J1772 adapter will not work with the general public.

It's not just that the public might not like it, it's against European regulations.

 

[Norbert]

It's not just that the public might not like it, it's against European regulations.

IIRC someone said these 'adapters' aren't cables.

 

[PaulM]

A Tesla employee who would know told me at the LA rally that the S will have an entirely new connector that 'will blow your mind.' He said it's smaller than the Roadster connector and incorporates both DC quick charge and J1772 standards in one port, using adapters to those charge stations.

If this is true, why can't the SAE design something better than the monstrosity that is their solution to a combination L2/L3 charge port. In my opinion, the new L2/L3 J1772 is too big and looks horrible.

 

[VolkerP]

If this is true, why can't the SAE design something better than the monstrosity that is their solution to a combination L2/L3 charge port. In my opinion, the new L2/L3 J1772 is too big and looks horrible.

(image link added)
I second that. Guessing from the inlet outline, the type 2 combo that ACEA (EU car makers) agreed upon won't look better. Sigh.
A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

 

[Lloyd]

You realize that the large plug is for DC fast charging only. The smaller J1772 as we are using now works on the upper 1/2 of the recepticle for level II charging AC to 80 amps. I have no problem with this combination!

 

[VolkerP]

I do realize that. The additional, bulky DC charge pins are unused when charging from AC and vice versa.

What I don't realize is, why a bunch of electric+automotive engineers cannot figure out a way how the vehicle and the EVSE negotiate on both current and form of voltage (AC/DC)! Then charging either uses four pins for three phase AC + neutral or 2 pairs of 2 pins for DC. Given that the Mennekes cable and plug spec goes up to 63A/400V AC (16mm2 wires), it should be possible to provide 500V / 75A x 2 = 75kW DC charging on the same hardware.
Of course, negotiation must be fool proof.

 

[Norbert]

Given that the Mennekes cable and plug spec goes up to 63A/400V AC (16mm2 wires), it should be possible to provide 500V / 75A x 2 = 75kW DC charging on the same hardware.
Of course, negotiation must be fool proof.

I think it does that up to some maximum DC charging rate. Above that, Mennekes, like SAE, defines a combo plug with two large additional DC pins. I'm not sure how it look in real life compared to the SAE combo plug.

 

[TEG]

There are a tremendous amount of committees involved with getting this specified and agreed upon.
It is a wonder that they finally approve anything, and not surprising that they end up with something less than elegant.

 

[TEG]

...Mennekes, like SAE, defines a combo plug with two large additional DC pins. I'm not sure how it look in real life compared to the SAE combo plug.

Sorry, I couldn't find an actual side by side comparison picture, but here are some other points of reference:
AC Mennekes:

AC SAE J1772:

SAE seems to have a smaller diameter socket, but the SAE plug handle tends to be longer with the lock/release switch on top.


Mennekes with DC vs SAE with DC pins:

I think for the DC plug / socket there isn't a huge amount of physical size difference.


48-v-bordnetz, Teilnetzbetrieb Und Ladeschnittstelle - Deutsche OEMs setzen Standards - all-electronics.de

 

[vfx]

http://www.cleancities.tv/FeaturedContent/Training/EVSEResidentialChargingInstallation.aspx?VID=110624_Clean Cities_EVSE_Final.flv&Cap=110624_Clean Cities_EVSE_Final.xml

Chart at 7:40 help?

 

[dpeilow]

Yeah, there's a mode on Mennekes where the regular plug supports DC through combining its pins, up to a reasonable power level. The monstrosity form factor is for the big stuff.

I remember seeing a vid on 10 minute Altairnano charging where they proposed a spiral contact design for a small plug and a lot of surface area.

 

[rabar10]

http://www.cleancities.tv/FeaturedContent/Training/EVSEResidentialChargingInstallation.aspx?VID=110624_Clean Cities_EVSE_Final.flv&Cap=110624_Clean Cities_EVSE_Final.xml

Chart at 7:40 help?

Thanks for the link. I didn't even know about the proposed "Level 1 DC", looks like up to 80A if it's using the same power pins as the existing J1772 connector, and 80A at 400V matches the 32kW spoken in the video (but mis-typed in the captioning). That would charge a vehicle with pack voltage similar to the Roadster at ~1.5x the rate of the Level 2 AC connection. BTW there's conflicting info out there on whether Level 1 DC uses the existing J1772 pins or the new big DC pins.

So is the complexity of combining AC and DC connections on the same pins, and requiring an offboard DC charger, worth the gains over L2 AC? Probably not IMO. Hence not hearing about it...

 

[TEG]

Model S plug (picture from Nigel):

Could be similar pinout (but different shape) from J1772.
Hot+Hot+Ground... 2 signaling pins...

 

[strider]

Yeah, I have to say I am NOT pleased by all this proprietary charge port business. Tesla thinks they're smarter than everyone but not adhering to standards makes everyone's life a PITA. Oh wait, we can have J1772 "adapters".

And putting in their own charging stations? Stick to one freaking business and excel at it. It's going to cost a bundle to place proprietary charging stations all over the earth and Tesla isn't exactly making money hand over fist. Build great cars, stick to charging standards, and the networks will come.

 

[dpeilow]

Did anyone get pictures or the size of this 90 kW charging station? I understand there was one there refilling the test drive cars.