What charge port connector?

[doug]

Mennekes uses the four small pins only up to 70 kW. Above that it is the huge combo.

What's your point? If Tesla says they can do 90kW on the 2 pins they've shown, then they should also be able to do it by doubling up on four pins of half the diameter. The only reason this matters is that Tesla should really offer an on-board 3-phase solution for European customers which means they should design a connector capable of 3-phase.

 

[doug]

At the factory tour, someone from Tesla told me it was because they were worried about a shortage of components. Apparently there was only one vendor providing parts, and they only agreed to provide enough for Tesla's direct needs. They said if others tried to use those same parts it could have caused a supply problem for them. At least that was the story that was fed to me.

Not very likely.

 

[dpeilow]

I've lived long enough in Germany, and travelled all over western Europe, both driving and with others, to know that your statement about DC is not true. Not at all. That's a case where one says "it's not even wrong". Using a ferry is certainly not a typical thing, even if some may do it regularly. As long as you are dismissive about DC to that degree, there is really no point in arguing about anything related to charging.

I've almost lost track of what you are arguing about now but it's getting tedious. Widodh was using the ferry as an example, not THE example.

You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. Please just accept that many Europeans are asking for this from many different countries, they know what they need and what they can hook up to. And most of all, if they get what they are asking for it is not going to affect you anyway. End of.

 

[VolkerP]

Let's all agree with Norbert that residential DC networks are great and he will generously concede 3 phase support on us.

 

[jkirkebo]

I just think it's unnecessary to have a different connector in different markets when you could have one that does it all. Four smaller pins of diameter D have the same contact area of two larger pins of diameter 2D.

Why four pins ? Three should be enough, L1+L2+L3 for delta connection. N is only needed for wye, why would we need that ?

 

[Doug_G]

At the factory tour, someone from Tesla told me it was because they were worried about a shortage of components. Apparently there was only one vendor providing parts, and they only agreed to provide enough for Tesla's direct needs. They said if others tried to use those same parts it could have caused a supply problem for them. At least that was the story that was fed to me.

Funny. The new PEM cooling fans have limited supply. The new HID headlights have limited supply. Makes you wonder where they get these things from.

 

[VolkerP]

Why four pins ? Three should be enough, L1+L2+L3 for delta connection. N is only needed for wye, why would we need that ?

I second that. The two large pins serve either AC 1 phase 80 amps or DC 200 amps. To add 3 phase 32A support (22kW), Tesla could add one medium sized pin to the Model S connector.

 

[Norbert]

What's your point? If Tesla says they can do 90kW on the 2 pins they've shown, then they should also be able to do it by doubling up on four pins of half the diameter. The only reason this matters is that Tesla should really offer an on-board 3-phase solution for European customers which means they should design a connector capable of 3-phase.

I might have missed what you were trying to say, but my point is that the Mennekes standard already uses the 4 pins potentially for DC by using them in two pairs, and the spec allows doing this only up to 70 kW (2*35 kW), whereas Tesla will use 90 kW. So are you saying Tesla should modify the pins, to allow them to carry 2*45 kW? I'm not an electrical engineer, but I guess it is not just a question of the diameter, however Tesla might be limited in what it can do in terms of modifying the pins without breaking compatibility.

EDIT: Guess you are suggesting Tesla should not just add 1 pin for 3-phase, but 2, and then use all four for DC. Not sure why you would suggest that, though.

 

[Norbert]

I've almost lost track of what you are arguing about now but it's getting tedious.

Mostly I'm arguing for the value of 90 kW fast charging in Europe as much as everywhere else, and I'll argue as long as everyone else argues.

Widodh was using the ferry as an example, not THE example.

Use a better example then.

You seem to be arguing for the sake of it.

I don't have to answer that.

Please just accept that many Europeans are asking for this from many different countries, they know what they need and what they can hook up to. And most of all, if they get what they are asking for it is not going to affect you anyway. End of.

I don't just accept anything. You'll have to convince me. Besides, this is not a 3-phase thread.

 

[mpt]

I don't think that four pins = 2 x two pins. If the current is split between two pins all is equal but if one gets dirty and presents resistance the current swings to the other pin overloading it.

 

[Norbert]

Let's all agree with Norbert that residential DC networks are great and he will generously concede 3 phase support on us.

I don't mind if you all agree with me (and/or with Tesla), but what do you mean with "residential"? I don't see fast-charging as being primarily related to anything "residential".

 

[Norbert]

I've almost lost track of what you are arguing about now but it's getting tedious. Widodh was using the ferry as an example, not THE example.

I should add that I was responding Tomsax's post, which wasn't about Europe. I don't know why Widodh then responded to my post point by point in a European context.

 

[doug]

Why four pins ? Three should be enough, L1+L2+L3 for delta connection. N is only needed for wye, why would we need that ?

I was just making a math point. Sure you can get by with just 3 pins too. Though, four pins just allows things to be a bit more symmetric and versatile. No unused contact area during DC operation. Also there was some talk of using a separate charger for each phase (sub-optimal, I know). Anyhow three is fine too.

 

[doug]

I don't think that four pins = 2 x two pins. If the current is split between two pins all is equal but if one gets dirty and presents resistance the current swings to the other pin overloading it.

Easy enough to engineer around. But like I said, I'd just prefer they made one connector instead of introducing yet another one when they launch in Europe. Four power pins makes it more easily directly adaptable with Mennekes, but whatever. Just as long as they have a solution.

 

[TEG]

By the way, the Tesla announcement of the small Tesla proprietary new Model S socket reminded me of the early Volt prototypes where they seemed to be toying with some smaller, non J1772 plug/socket:

I gather, whatever that was, never came to be.

 

[Norbert]

Easy enough to engineer around. But like I said, I'd just prefer they made one connector instead of introducing yet another one when they launch in Europe. Four power pins makes it more easily directly adaptable with Mennekes, but whatever. Just as long as they have a solution.

Who knows if eventually they'll even use european electronics (by Bosch, Brusa or other third party supplier) for the charger (outside part), once a european standard is actually established. But currently it seems mostly paperwork, they might still change shapes, protocols and whatnot, so Tesla may need to do something that's useful independently, at least until european car manufacturers actually start building EVs.

 

[tomsax]

Tesla never released the Roadster connector, it was never standardized. So nobody was able to use it As a Roadster owner you couldn't even get your hands on one unless you bought a whole new charging cord.

At the factory tour, someone from Tesla told me it was because they were worried about a shortage of components. Apparently there was only one vendor providing parts, and they only agreed to provide enough for Tesla's direct needs. They said if others tried to use those same parts it could have caused a supply problem for them. At least that was the story that was fed to me.

That's funny! When I was trying to figure out why Tesla was so adamant about using their plug instead of converting Roadsters to use J1772 when it was approved in January, 2010, I was told by someone who claimed to have inside knowledge that Tesla had to buy a huge number of those connectors in order to get a good unit price. They had to keep using those heavy, non-standard, unwieldy things to keep from just eating them.

Of course that doesn't explain why they refused to sell them to anyone at anything resembling a reasonable price.

 

[Doug_G]

Of course that doesn't explain why they refused to sell them to anyone at anything resembling a reasonable price.

Probably because they really, really didn't want to have to order another batch.

 

[zdre]

Why four pins ? Three should be enough, L1+L2+L3 for delta connection. N is only needed for wye, why would we need that ?

You get lower DC voltage (but higher current can be pulled) in phase-to-phase connections (total ideal power output remains the same). I'm sure Tesla can engineer something with just 3 pins, but I don't know how the use of Neutral affects efficiency.

 

[qwk]

Why does almost every thread turn into a 3-phase argument fest??? I'm getting tired of it. I think that almost everyone can agree that if Musk is smart, he will give Europeans what they want and have the engineers incorporate 3-phase charging into the Model S. If he doesn't, Tesla will not get too many European sales. End of story.