What do people consider to be reasonable a reasonable kWh charge cost?

[Mrklaw]

10p

Honestly think 5p was ok if we allow more apply side control. If I’m charging off peak and it means less need to stop wind turbines spinning

 

[Gatsojon]

I have a similar view.

I would see about double the 'standard' domestic rates for the fastest chargers as being fair and about 50% above the par rate for the slower ones.

Good rule of thumb that.

 

[browellm]

Yeah, in hindsight I should have started a new thread.

 

[Mrklaw]

7kw home chargers - 10p/kwh off peak/25p peak
7kwh public chargers - 25p (no more than home pricing)

Urban rapids - 30-40p
MSA rapids - 60-80p

I figure MSAs are justified charging nire as they’re convenience above all. Urban ones less able to charge more - like petrol stations

 

[Jason71]

Instavolt currently at 50p/kWh is a bit steep even in the current market.

Do you have any calculations on that?
I honestly don't know the cost of ( non price cap) electricity or any of the other costs associated with running a charge point network such as
initial equipment cost
installation
support
IT
maintenance
profit margin
admin
payment card charges
networking costs
utilisation
fees
etc

do they pay for the sites where they are? or do the sites like McDonalds pay them since the charge points attract customers?

I know VAT is 20% but that is about it. Pretty sure I could not run a DC charge point profitably for 50p/kwh

 

[NewbieT]

I started writing this before reading Instavolt’s accounts. My assumption was over simplified but here goes:

Let’s say a 50kW unit is used for 4h a day, say 180kWh, or 65,700kWh a year. Turnover £27,375 @50p/kWh each year.

If they buy electricity at 25p/kWh then that leaves £13,687 per unit for other costs and profit.

You can buy a 50kW DC charger for £18k RRP. I know grid connections aren’t always cheap. They must have some substantial costs not to make a profit out of that. Their costs can’t have grown as quickly as the cost of electricity.

***** then I read Instavolt accounts****

Revenue for 2020/21 £871,000 on 543 units (some came on line mid- year) so £1,607 per unit per annum. Can’t do much with that.

Loss in year of £6m.

Depreciation on charging equipment 10-30 years. I’d assume that means 10yr for a charger and 30 yrs for a transformer. Just imagine a 10 year old Ecotricity charger though. BP Pulse, charging equipment also 10 yrs.

50p at this point maybe doesn’t look so bad afterall. In time demand / usage has /will increase, charging providers will need scale and efficiency to compete, they’re going to need/want to secure long term stable energy supplies (prices) too. In the mean time they would be very pleased to make a profit.

Instavolt have just been bought. As have Hubsta so we are starting to see so market consolidation/ M&A activity.

 

[Godsense]

I started writing this before reading Instavolt’s accounts. My assumption was over simplified but here goes:

Let’s say a 50kW unit is used for 4h a day, say 180kWh, or 65,700kWh a year. Turnover £27,375 @50p/kWh each year.

If they buy electricity at 25p/kWh then that leaves £13,687 per unit for other costs and profit.

You can buy a 50kW DC charger for £18k RRP. I know grid connections aren’t always cheap. They must have some substantial costs not to make a profit out of that. Their costs can’t have grown as quickly as the cost of electricity.

***** then I read Instavolt accounts****

Revenue for 2020/21 £871,000 on 543 units (some came on line mid- year) so £1,607 per unit per annum. Can’t do much with that.

Loss in year of £6m.

Depreciation on charging equipment 10-30 years. I’d assume that means 10yr for a charger and 30 yrs for a transformer. Just imagine a 10 year old Ecotricity charger though. BP Pulse, charging equipment also 10 yrs.

50p at this point maybe doesn’t look so bad afterall. In time demand / usage has /will increase, charging providers will need scale and efficiency to compete, they’re going to need/want to secure long term stable energy supplies (prices) too. In the mean time they would be very pleased to make a profit.

Instavolt have just been bought. As have Hubsta so we are starting to see so market consolidation/ M&A activity.

Great summary. Playing the long game isn't it really. I know they have never really been the cheapest but atleast they are generally reliable.

 

[Avendit]

I started writing this before reading Instavolt’s accounts. My assumption was over simplified but here goes:

Let’s say a 50kW unit is used for 4h a day, say 180kWh, or 65,700kWh a year. Turnover £27,375 @50p/kWh each year.

If they buy electricity at 25p/kWh then that leaves £13,687 per unit for other costs and profit.

You can buy a 50kW DC charger for £18k RRP. I know grid connections aren’t always cheap. They must have some substantial costs not to make a profit out of that. Their costs can’t have grown as quickly as the cost of electricity.

***** then I read Instavolt accounts****

Revenue for 2020/21 £871,000 on 543 units (some came on line mid- year) so £1,607 per unit per annum. Can’t do much with that.

Loss in year of £6m.

Depreciation on charging equipment 10-30 years. I’d assume that means 10yr for a charger and 30 yrs for a transformer. Just imagine a 10 year old Ecotricity charger though. BP Pulse, charging equipment also 10 yrs.

50p at this point maybe doesn’t look so bad afterall. In time demand / usage has /will increase, charging providers will need scale and efficiency to compete, they’re going to need/want to secure long term stable energy supplies (prices) too. In the mean time they would be very pleased to make a profit.

Instavolt have just been bought. As have Hubsta so we are starting to see so market consolidation/ M&A activity.

2 thoughts on the back of this (excellent research btw)

1) Those that can push util up will win a lot. Your sums change quite a bit if an operator can find a way to push util to 12 hours a day rather than 4. Tesla could do this - they must have a sketch of a system for virtual queuing using the satnav thought out. You enter the SC as a destination or it adds it as a stop and you reserve a slot at your predicted arrival time +-5 mins so you know you can just drive up and plug in. It gets refreshed and shuffled as you get closer and in return if you do have to wait, they are managing the queue and notifying who can plug in where. They get to maximise their SC usage and chalk up yet another update.

2) What would people think of variable rate fast charging costs? Tesla have experimented rather bluntly with this in the US around thanksgiving (the LA <--> phoenix route I think) by offering free SC charging overnight or something? Would you move your travel times around to get a half price charge? What about saving 5% by making it to the next SC? Personally from my starting point in Edinburgh and only really needing the SC's heading south, you will claw my Tebay stop from my cold broke hands after I've sold one of my children for profit. (Although I actually have many options to skip it if I really needed to, its just nice)

 

[NewbieT]

1) I like: “You’re in a virtual queue and your allocated start time is currently estimated to be XX:XX Please keep below 60mph to be more efficient, minimise waiting and arrive nearer your allocated start time. You have been allocated 9 minutes at this Supercharger which is enough to complete your journey. Unplug when requested to avoid substantial overcharging fees. Warning: Changing the navigation will result in you losing your place in the virtual queue.”

 

[MrBadger]

I’ve often wondered about a virtual queuing system. Not that I ever gave it too much thought but never got past to what would happen if things didn’t go to plan, either delay on route etc (probably mitigated against by dynamic in transit adjustments) or a stall getting blocked and what do you do about clearing the block/and making that situation less common - thinking about someone just rocking up unannounced, plugging in (or not) and buggering off - like being ICEd.

 

[Jason71]

I started writing this before reading Instavolt’s accounts. My assumption was over simplified but here goes:

Let’s say a 50kW unit is used for 4h a day, say 180kWh, or 65,700kWh a year. Turnover £27,375 @50p/kWh each year.

If they buy electricity at 25p/kWh then that leaves £13,687 per unit for other costs and profit.

You can buy a 50kW DC charger for £18k RRP. I know grid connections aren’t always cheap. They must have some substantial costs not to make a profit out of that. Their costs can’t have grown as quickly as the cost of electricity.

***** then I read Instavolt accounts****

Revenue for 2020/21 £871,000 on 543 units (some came on line mid- year) so £1,607 per unit per annum. Can’t do much with that.

Loss in year of £6m.

Depreciation on charging equipment 10-30 years. I’d assume that means 10yr for a charger and 30 yrs for a transformer. Just imagine a 10 year old Ecotricity charger though. BP Pulse, charging equipment also 10 yrs.

50p at this point maybe doesn’t look so bad afterall. In time demand / usage has /will increase, charging providers will need scale and efficiency to compete, they’re going to need/want to secure long term stable energy supplies (prices) too. In the mean time they would be very pleased to make a profit.

Instavolt have just been bought. As have Hubsta so we are starting to see so market consolidation/ M&A activity.

I think many charge points may be run at a loss at present. I suspect they are investing to grab good locations now while they are available and also to build economy of scale.

 

[pgkevet]

1) I like: “You’re in a virtual queue and your allocated start time is currently estimated to be XX:XX Please keep below 60mph to be more efficient, minimise waiting and arrive nearer your allocated start time. You have been allocated 9 minutes at this Supercharger which is enough to complete your journey. Unplug when requested to avoid substantial overcharging fees. Warning: Changing the navigation will result in you losing your place in the virtual queue.”

No chance. That assumed everywhere has destination charging, that you aren't going to get sudden detours, and destroys any chance of spontaneously changing route to go see something or an unscheduled break. The whole aim should be to make things as near as possible to petrol fuelling - adequate pumps with a rare wait.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I suspect they are investing to grab good locations now while they are available and also to build economy of scale.

I wonder to what extent 3rd party charging companies are putting in infrastructure for more stalls, and reserving the adjacent space. I have no data to go on, but when I see 2 or 4 stalls I do wonder what they will have to do when expansion becomes necessary.

Tesla with 10 - 20 stalls installed initially, often right next to the entrance to the facilities, seems to be in pole position

 

[NewbieT]

No chance. That assumed everywhere has destination charging, that you aren't going to get sudden detours, and destroys any chance of spontaneously changing route to go see something or an unscheduled break. The whole aim should be to make things as near as possible to petrol fuelling - adequate pumps with a rare wait.

Think about a Bank Holiday Weekend going to Cornwall.

 

[Jason71]

Think about a Bank Holiday Weekend going to Cornwall.

on the contrary. Don't even think about going to Cornwall for a bank holiday weekend.
times like that are going to be a nightmare as EV adoption increase and they will get worse before they get better

 

[NewbieT]

The M5 was nightmare in ICE times let alone adding charging into the mix.

 

[WannabeOwner]

The M5 was nightmare in ICE times let alone adding charging into the mix.

Darts Farm is worth a stop ... although only a few Supercharger stalls, so risk of having to queue

EDIT: Just checked and Tesla says "8 superchargers 150kW, 4 superchargers 250kW (CCS)" so looks like that's much better than it was

Darts Farm - Farm Shop in Topsham, Exeter, Devon

Welcome to Darts Farm, a local farm shop based in Exeter, Devon, home of the West Country food & drink and crafted, luxury gift, & home & lifestyle products.

www.dartsfarm.co.uk

 

[spooksman]

I just arrived in Cornwall yesterday, with one stop at Gordano, and one at Lifton. Even in March at 10am on a Friday Gordano had only one spare stall...

Exeter looked busy (based on the map) on the way past, but Lifton was quiet (what an odd Supercharger location!).

Down in St Austell there are very few options to charge, so I 'filled up' when at Lifton (40p kWh mind).

 

[Jason71]

I just arrived in Cornwall yesterday, with one stop at Gordano, and one at Lifton. Even in March at 10am on a Friday Gordano had only one spare stall...

Exeter looked busy (based on the map) on the way past, but Lifton was quiet (what an odd Supercharger location!).

Down in St Austell there are very few options to charge, so I 'filled up' when at Lifton (40p kWh mind).

To be fair regarding Gordano there are 20 additional superchargers less than 6 miles away at Cribbs And Lysander Road. And a 6 charger Gridserve hub at the end of Lysander road so overall that area is pretty well served.