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What's normal AWD Front Motor Sound?

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This is based on some hobby experience while being somewhat educated in the matter (I'm far from an engineer here),

There are basically two sources of noise for electric drive units. One would be mechanical noises (gearing, etc.), the other being electrically induced but partly mechanical in nature.

How applicable this is to the Model 3, I don't know, but an example with brushed DC motors: these are normally driven by "Pulse Width Modulation", or PWM. Instead of varying the voltage to control the speed, you very rapidly switch the motor on and off. Controlling how long it is on vs. off sort of approximates varying the voltage, thus where the idea of "modulating" the "pulse width" comes from.

When I say this is switched very rapidly, I mean well above what you could do with your hand and a switch. Between hundreds of time per second and many thousand - that is, many 100Hz or even well above 10kHz. Sometimes, the switching frequency is actually within the same frequency range of hearing as the human ear. If these hard on/off pulses do anything like moving electrical coils around slightly (they do!), they can actually create sound with these vibrations. This is more or less the same reason you hear the 60Hz hum in some places, since North American electrical is a 60Hz AC waveform. If you've ever heard a high pitch whine from a power adapter or something, they're varying voltage using a similar switching idea (look up "switched-mode power supplies"), and happen to be using a frequency in the audible range. Generally, higher power applications can shove around coils and such easier (what with the higher electromagnetic fields and such), which is why you generally hear the "hum" around bigger equipment. EVs are also very high power motors.

So. The Model 3, on neither side, has a brushed DC motor like in my example. They're more like 3 phase AC motors, but these can still have electrical noise. Not just the primary frequency driving the motors, but all the electronics included in managing that power and any secondary switching frequencies. The ~370V pack (about 400V maximum) is DC voltage, but needs to be made into approximately AC waveforms to drive these motors. Which is why they have "drive inverters" to do this job (another term in this context is "variable frequency drive" or VFD, a more industrial term). They have all sorts of switching electronics inside to convert that DC voltage to the appropriate frequency waveform (actually, 3 of them) at any given time to get the requested torque out of the motors at a given RPM. Any number of things in this process could generate audible noise, including the primary drive high-voltage waveform supplied to the motors.

That doesn't pinpoint exactly which bit is making the noises we hear, but gives a general idea of the causes of such noises. I find the "beeping" from the front motor most interesting because the motor seems to be coasting in that state. However, I wonder if it's something to do with the "powered neutral" that Tesla seems to use (to my understanding, they need to actively match things to emulate neutral - it's not using power really, but there would still be switching going on and such). I will make a strong statement that should be true 99.999% of the time: When you hear the front motor "beeping", it is not being used for propulsion. It is coasting. The rear motor is providing all the forward power.

Thanks! This is super informative! Do you have any opinion then as to why I could barely hear ANY motor noises in another Model 3 Performance, but it's very loud in mine? Faulty motor in mine or lacking proper insulation?
 
This might have been posted already, but start from # 26 in this thread:

High pitched noise from drive unit

Everything I've gathered from that thread about the noise:

-It is fairly common
-It might be the inverters
-It is considered normal according to Tesla
-Sound dampening helped someone (performed by a SC - trunk area)
-Replacing the front drive unit solved the problem for 1 member
-Everyone is mentioning the rear motor as the culprit. And RWD drive owners are also complaining
-It might be programming related as one person mentioned getting it after a certain update
-It might be a normal for it to occur after a certain number of miles

That thread is helpful, thanks. I am assuming it's not that common as you would hear it all over the place and I had a hard time finding any information about it except for these couple of threads. Also, I've tried several other Tesla's myself and the difference is night and day. There's no way no sound to very loud high pitch sound is within the range of "Normal" engineering tolerances. My guess is that it's not common at all and very expensive to fix, so Tesla refuses to do so. Also, mine was making this noise at Delivery which is really not cool. Let me enjoy the Tesla for a year or 2 before I have to deal this this.
 
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That thread is helpful, thanks. I am assuming it's not that common as you would hear it all over the place and I had a hard time finding any information about it except for these couple of threads. Also, I've tried several other Tesla's myself and the difference is night and day. There's no way no sound to very loud high pitch sound is within the range of "Normal" engineering tolerances. My guess is that it's not common at all and very expensive to fix, so Tesla refuses to do so. Also, mine was making this noise at Delivery which is really not cool. Let me enjoy the Tesla for a year or 2 before I have to deal this this.


Yeah, there aren't many threads about it, so that does say something. And It's great that you went out and tested some, because that confirms it's not normal, at least for the new cars. It also further casts doubt on their 'we tested other cars' answer.

I know you might think it's futile at this point, but I'd take it to another SC and approach the manger with this info, but in a calm, concerned way of course. Let him know what you were told by the other SC, and that you ran several tests yourself and your results were quite the opposite. You never know, they may take a serious look at it.
 
Yeah, there aren't many threads about it, so that does say something. And It's great that you went out and tested some, because that confirms it's not normal, at least for the new cars. It also further casts doubt on their 'we tested other cars' answer.

I know you might think it's futile at this point, but I'd take it to another SC and approach the manger with this info, but in a calm, concerned way of course. Let him know what you were told by the other SC, and that you ran several tests yourself and your results were quite the opposite. You never know, they may take a serious look at it.

Great advice!! Thanks for the help and I will do what you recommend.
 
I test drove a new Model 3 Performance the other day and it was super quiet and could barely hear any motor noise at all (only on hard acceleration and then it was still barely audible). Night and day compared to my situation. So, how could the loud whining noises I'm hearing be considered "Normal" by Tesla?

i think everyone here made it clear that its not normal.
my model 3 is like the one you testdrove. no motor noise but slight motor noise on hard acceleration.
 
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FWIF, I have this on my 2020 M3 LR AWD. You described it well but it's not very loud and behaves just as described until about 35/40 mph when accelerating or decelerating to a halt. It's kind of like a whistling noise but it is not constant and pulses as described. Seems normal to me, but again it's not very loud in my car and need the music off to hear it. Over 23K miles driven and no issues. I also purchased acceleration boost recently...no issues. I did notice it more during the early months of ownership so I think it's quieted down over time.
 
You folks might want to read this thread in its entirety:


I did the fix(only to the rear motor ground strap so far) and the noise went away completely. I've recently started hearing it a bit more than not at all, and it very well may be the front ground strap/motor this time around.
 
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I can easily hear it in the video posted on page 1. My 2021 LR AWD doesn't do that but I've heard it in a few other Model 3 videos. Since some do it and others don't, I don't know whether it's normal or not. My Chevy Volt used to do that (at low speed) and my Bolt did as well, but only when accelerating hard. My 2021 Model 3 is the quietest of the bunch.

Mike
 
I agree with Sophia's dad, I applied the DIY fix, tightening the rear ground strap nut, and the whine went away. It's an easy 25min fix, takes as much time as it takes you to remove the left rear tire.
IMG_9165.jpeg
 
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Here's a clip (link, below). Did my best to capture...please turn up volume all the way. You can hear the constant motor whine and pulsing/beeping occasionally as well. I look forward to your thoughts.

New video by Russ Moro
I know I'm quoting an old post, but this is *exactly* the noise my brand new 2023 M3 LR AWD is making. It's loud enough that my wife can't stand to talk on the phone with me when I'm driving as she can hear the whine through the phone! From the poking that I've done through this thread and others linked, it seems like simply tightening the ground strap clears up the problem in most cases. I'm going to do some more reading and then press my local SC to try this. Shouldn't be happening on a $65,000 EV. Our Kia Niro certainly doesn't do it.
 
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After my local service center said "in spec", I scheduled service at the next town because:
1) They have a MY AWD available to test drive. My wife is interested for down the road, and I wanted to compare motor noise.
2) They had an immediate Saturday appointment nice and early.

Test drove my car with the tech. He acknowledged the noise. I told him about the ground strap solution from the forums. I was hoping/expecting them to try this. So while they took my car back, we test drove a MY AWD. WOW, front motor sooo much quieter than my car at all speeds 0-50 mph. Accelerating, cruising, regening, all much much quieter. Beautiful. So my car is definitely NOT "in spec".

After finishing the test drive, we sat in the waiting room for a while. Checked my phone app and it says:

Replace front drive unit: in progress

Wow! Was not expecting that!!! Super excited that they are fixing the issue and pulled out all the stops! Soon after got a message they have to keep my car until Monday. Providing us with a Model S loaner car. I asked for a Plaid. They laughed.

Fingers crossed but can't imagine this won't fix the noise.
 
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I’ve been to 2 service centers and they won’t replace my FDU. Super annoying loud whinning noise on acceleration and decel 30-50mph. I have an appointment at a third. How do I get them to replace? It’s driving me crazy 2015 85D S under warranty
 
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