When the ACTUAL cybertruck pricing is released…,

[Suns_PSD]

That seems to come precariously close to a niche which could be filled by a PHEV pickup. No?

I really like the idea of a plug in hybrid as a way to save the fuel by doing most driving on the batteries but still having a full engine for towing and what not.

However you still have to not just have a full size ICE engine and everything needed to drive them (transmission, driveline, etc., but generally the range and performance on PHEV batteries is pretty poor running out 1/2 through the day for most applications. It also requires a lot of plugging in which is annoying.

I much prefer the idea of a good sized 150ish kWh battery pack in a full EV with all of the EV advantages, with a range boosting generator mounted in a tool box to extend range when towing or traveling. Of course it'll only be enough power to reduce the rate at which the batteries drain but as long as you have the ability to run the generator any time you desire, it could accomplish and awful lot. Say running while your camping, dining, or sleeping overnight. Generators are simple and inexpensive devices compared to a full ICE engine with the entire drivetrain.

 

[coleAK]

My problem with the generator theory is you just won’t really get much towing. Even if it is a 50 amp you are talking an extra 250-300 lbs and will get up to ~6-7 miles range per hour running. 30a more like ~3 miles per hour running. 120v more like 1 mile every 2-3 hours.

I guess looking at a ~8-10% range boost towing a camper. The more I think about it ~$2k for a generator is cheeper then a 10% larger battery.

 

[RMS149]

50 amp *240V = 12 KW. I would think towing 1.2KW/mile is achievable. At 60MPH in the first 3 hours of driving you gain another 30 miles. That is a 20% increase. I can't think of a more efficient way to gain 20% range. I have an emergency genny and 6 gallon lasts me about 6 hours at 6KW... Scale that up and OK 2 gallons of gas per hour (Not great MPG but it gets you back home.

When I don't need it, it is in the garage and I'm not hauling it around. Seems like a solid solution, if Ford or Dodge does it then it will swing more in their direction. Those of you that do not want it you don't have to pay for it. The question is will Mr. Musk allow for an option that costs him nothing to offer.

 

[coleAK]

50 amp *240V = 12 KW. I would think towing 1.2KW/mile is achievable. At 60MPH in the first 3 hours of driving you gain another 30 miles. That is a 20% increase. I can't think of a more efficient way to gain 20% range. I have an emergency genny and 6 gallon lasts me about 6 hours at 6KW... Scale that up and OK 2 gallons of gas per hour (Not great MPG but it gets you back home.

When I don't need it, it is in the garage and I'm not hauling it around. Seems like a solid solution, if Ford or Dodge does it then it will swing more in their direction. Those of you that do not want it you don't have to pay for it. The question is will Mr. Musk allow for an option that costs him nothing to offer.

I’ve charged my teslas off all 3 of my generators (2k Yamaha, 9k champion, and 12k diesel generac) just to see if/how it works. They Would only charge off the 3k and 9k if the generators were grounded.

 

[EvilNuff]

I really like the idea of a plug in hybrid as a way to save the fuel by doing most driving on the batteries but still having a full engine for towing and what not.
...

No plug in hybrids have enough range to be significant as electric only (unless you have a ridiculously short commute). On top of that you give up the biggest advantage IMO of a full EV...the maintenance savings. Plug in hybrids are just the worst of both worlds, all the problems of a gas car plus the extra cost and materials for batteries for none of the advantages.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I don't see it that way.

The few anecdotal reports of PHEV usage report getting 2K+ miles on a tank of fuel.

Obviously engine maintenance would go off of engine hours, not mileage in this case. Manufacturers would likely have you change oil every few years based on hours.

I still don't see what the big deal about ICE maintenance is, it's practically nothing as is.

 

[Earl]

The few anecdotal reports of PHEV usage report getting 2K+ miles on a tank of fuel.

Yes, Jay Leno allegedly drove his Volt on the gas that came in the tank when he bought it, for about 2 years or so. However, he only drove it from his garage to the studio each day, all in Burbank, CA.
This supports the assertion that:

No plug in hybrids have enough range to be significant as electric only (unless you have a ridiculously short commute)

 

[coleAK]

I don't see it that way.

The few anecdotal reports of PHEV usage report getting 2K+ miles on a tank of fuel.

Obviously engine maintenance would go off of engine hours, not mileage in this case. Manufacturers would likely have you change oil every few years based on hours.

I still don't see what the big deal about ICE maintenance is, it's practically nothing as is.

I also don’t see all the complaining about ICE maintenance. I have 3 ICEs and 1 EV at my house, all were purchased new so I’m the original owner (2018 tesla model 3, 2013 Lexus LX570, 2004 MB e320 4matic, 2015 Subaru Legacy)

I do all my own PM and most of the repairs. Have all the tools I need including a lift.

This year I’ve probably spent 6 hours on maintenance between oil changes, diff fluid, break fluid, and summer/winter tire swaps. I enjoy working on cars, I blame much of it on my first 2 vehicles being a 1979 Jeep wagoner and 1993 Range Rover.

Some thoughts comparing our 4 vehicles

tire swap takes the longest on our Model 3 and Subaru Legacy, they have the smallest most specific Jack points. So the EV takes more time here.

I do brake fluid exchanges every other fall when I do a tire swap on all the cars, I do 2/4 every time this fall I’ll do the Tesla and MB. So no advantage there, all about the same.

Diff/t case fluids, on the Lexus and Subaru I do every 30k miles, 50k on the MB. It is starting to concern me that Tesla claims lifetime for diffs, the diffs are pretty standard open diffs on the model 3, nothing special, connected to very high torque motors. Elon is a major BSer and like to claim no maintenance. I’m at 45k miles and 4 years, now out of warranty. I tend to keep cars a long time, I’m starting to think I should change the fluid regardless of what Tesla says. So I’m going to say a wash.

Coolant, did it at 100k on my MB, will probably do it at 100k on the Lexus. Again lifetime seems like a long time for the battery coolant considering they use G48, same as MB and BMW in their ICEs. I’ll probably say 100k miles. But no idea what the process is, in an ice I can do it in ~1hr. Let’s say a wash for now but could be longer.

Transmission. No transmission in most EVs. I do transmission fluid every 5 years in the Lexus, 7 in the Subaru and 10 years in the MB. Honestly transmission fluid is the easiest fluid, I don’t even put the LX on my lift for this one. EV wins here (will except for the Porsche that has a transmission)

Oil changes, on the 3 ICEs I probably do 4 a year. I can do all 3 in probably 1.5 hrs. EV wins here

Tires: so far my EVs have gone through tires 20-30% faster then my ICEs. So win for the ICEs.

My LX is by for the most PM heavy and I do fairly short intervals. But the vast majority of the time I drive it is off road it hard in very harsh conditions and towing a 7k lb camper.

So for people that own a vehicle less then 5-7 years it really it comes down to oil changes, which for most people is once a year. So for somone that has a car 7 years you are talking about the cost/time of 7 oil changes in an ICE vs one extra set of tires in an EV.

 

[uscbucsfan]

I also don’t see all the complaining about ICE maintenance. I have 3 ICEs and 1 EV at my house, all were purchased new so I’m the original owner (2018 tesla model 3, 2013 Lexus LX570, 2004 MB e320 4matic, 2015 Subaru Legacy)

I do all my own PM and most of the repairs. Have all the tools I need including a lift.

This year I’ve probably spent 6 hours on maintenance between oil changes, diff fluid, break fluid, and summer/winter tire swaps. I enjoy working on cars, I blame much of it on my first 2 vehicles being a 1979 Jeep wagoner and 1993 Range Rover.

Some thoughts comparing our 4 vehicles

tire swap takes the longest on our Model 3 and Subaru Legacy, they have the smallest most specific Jack points. So the EV takes more time here.

I do brake fluid exchanges every other fall when I do a tire swap on all the cars, I do 2/4 every time this fall I’ll do the Tesla and MB. So no advantage there, all about the same.

Diff/t case fluids, on the Lexus and Subaru I do every 30k miles, 50k on the MB. It is starting to concern me that Tesla claims lifetime for diffs, the diffs are pretty standard open diffs on the model 3, nothing special, connected to very high torque motors. Elon is a major BSer and like to claim no maintenance. I’m at 45k miles and 4 years, now out of warranty. I tend to keep cars a long time, I’m starting to think I should change the fluid regardless of what Tesla says. So I’m going to say a wash.

Coolant, did it at 100k on my MB, will probably do it at 100k on the Lexus. Again lifetime seems like a long time for the battery coolant considering they use G48, same as MB and BMW in their ICEs. I’ll probably say 100k miles. But no idea what the process is, in an ice I can do it in ~1hr. Let’s say a wash for now but could be longer.

Transmission. No transmission in most EVs. I do transmission fluid every 5 years in the Lexus, 7 in the Subaru and 10 years in the MB. Honestly transmission fluid is the easiest fluid, I don’t even put the LX on my lift for this one. EV wins here (will except for the Porsche that has a transmission)

Oil changes, on the 3 ICEs I probably do 4 a year. I can do all 3 in probably 1.5 hrs. EV wins here

Tires: so far my EVs have gone through tires 20-30% faster then my ICEs. So win for the ICEs.

My LX is by for the most PM heavy and I do fairly short intervals. But the vast majority of the time I drive it is off road it hard in very harsh conditions and towing a 7k lb camper.

So for people that own a vehicle less then 5-7 years it really it comes down to oil changes, which for most people is once a year. So for somone that has a car 7 years you are talking about the cost/time of 7 oil changes in an ICE vs one extra set of tires in an EV.

You didn't mention spark plugs, belts, brake pads/rotors, fuel filters, hoses...likely some other stuff. Less than 20% of Americans do any maintenance on their car, much less do all the stuff you do. So it's a pretty substantial time (at dealership)/money savings to not worry about all of those things.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

yeah it'll be pricey, and Tesla will sell every single one they can build

 

[T3SLAROD]

yeah it'll be pricey, and Tesla will sell every single one they can build

The question is to who? Resellers, or actual owners

 

[uscbucsfan]

The question is to who? Resellers, or actual owners

Both.

 

[coleAK]

You didn't mention spark plugs, belts, brake pads/rotors, fuel filters, hoses...likely some other stuff. Less than 20% of Americans do any maintenance on their car, much less do all the stuff you do. So it's a pretty substantial time (at dealership)/money savings to not worry about all of those things.

EVs also have pads and rotors. I’ve had to turn the rotors on both my Teslas due to pad residue. I think if anything EVs can be more prone to this as they do not have a park prawl so the pads stick against the rotor in many conditions.

I haven’t done spark plugs, belts, fuel filters, or hoses in any of my above 3 ICEs at 70k, 85k, and 160k miles. I’ll do plugs on my Lexus at 100k, I’ll probably do plugs on the MB at the same time (as the original are not going on 20 years old). And Teslas also have hoses with coolant, hoses are more of a lifespan thing and don’t think Tesla uses magical hoses.

While they are mechanically simple, electronics are not. With EVs my biggest concerns for long term reliability are electronics: computers, processors, capacitors, resistors, relays, screens, wiring,…. I would argue these things have a shorter lifespan then belts/hoses/plugs/…. The only car I’ve had in the last 25 years that was ended by failure was the Allroad, was essentially killed by a wiring harness that was damaged by mice when I lived in TN during residency. It was more then I could do myself and was $4k to replace in 2010 in a car that was worth ~$7k at the time.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

The question is to who? Resellers, or actual owners

Yeah - hopefully mostly owners. I like that Tesla actually tries to keep out the scalpers and line-campers/reservation-flippers but it is of course an imperfect effort.

 

[uscbucsfan]

EVs also have pads and rotors. I’ve had to turn the rotors on both my Teslas due to pad residue. I think if anything EVs can be more prone to this as they do not have a park prawl so the pads stick against the rotor in many conditions.

I haven’t done spark plugs, belts, fuel filters, or hoses in any of my above 3 ICEs at 70k, 85k, and 160k miles. I’ll do plugs on my Lexus at 100k, I’ll probably do plugs on the MB at the same time (as the original are not going on 20 years old).

With EVs my biggest concerns for long term reliability are electronics: computers, processors, capacitors, resistors, relays, screens, wiring,…. I would argue these things have a shorter life then belts/hoses/plugs/…. The only car I’ve had in the last 25 years that was ended by failure was the Allroad, was essentially killed by a wiring harness that was damaged by mice when I lived in TN during residency. It was more then I could do myself and was $4k to replace in 2010 in a car that was worth ~$7k at the time.

There's substantial documentation that brakes last a lot longer, but again...you are an exception all the things you "don't do" most Americans do at their local service center because ICE manufacturers recommend all of that stuff plus 30k, 60k, 100k inspections.

I do 0 maintenance on my Tesla (s)...outside of wiper fluid and new tires...same as most Tesla owners. It's a pretty substantial difference for me.

 

[whisperingshad]

I guess it depends on car and how long you keep.
For example prius/prime dont need brakes normally for 100k due to regen, most cars should be maintenance free till about 100k(besides oil changes, which have gotten WAY more expensive).

 

[coleAK]

There's substantial documentation that brakes last a lot longer, but again...you are an exception all the things you "don't do" most Americans do at their local service center because ICE manufacturers recommend all of that stuff plus 30k, 60k, 100k inspections.

I do 0 maintenance on my Tesla (s)...outside of wiper fluid and new tires...same as most Tesla owners. It's a pretty substantial difference for me.

Brakes last longer but pad residue was why has my MS and M3 rotors turned. Brake fluid absorbs moisture regardless of use, it is cheep and easy (and the smart thing) to exchange every 2 years.

I have this fear that we are going to see a lot of premature break/diff/… failures due to no PM in ~10 yea old teslas.

You can neglect PM on an ICE as well.

The CT is going to be massive and heavy, even with regen will likely go through brakes more like an ICE then Model 3.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I also don’t see all the complaining about ICE maintenance. I have 3 ICEs and 1 EV at my house, all were purchased new so I’m the original owner (2018 tesla model 3, 2013 Lexus LX570, 2004 MB e320 4matic, 2015 Subaru Legacy)

I do all my own PM and most of the repairs. Have all the tools I need including a lift.

This year I’ve probably spent 6 hours on maintenance between oil changes, diff fluid, break fluid, and summer/winter tire swaps. I enjoy working on cars, I blame much of it on my first 2 vehicles being a 1979 Jeep wagoner and 1993 Range Rover.

Some thoughts comparing our 4 vehicles

tire swap takes the longest on our Model 3 and Subaru Legacy, they have the smallest most specific Jack points. So the EV takes more time here.

I do brake fluid exchanges every other fall when I do a tire swap on all the cars, I do 2/4 every time this fall I’ll do the Tesla and MB. So no advantage there, all about the same.

Diff/t case fluids, on the Lexus and Subaru I do every 30k miles, 50k on the MB. It is starting to concern me that Tesla claims lifetime for diffs, the diffs are pretty standard open diffs on the model 3, nothing special, connected to very high torque motors. Elon is a major BSer and like to claim no maintenance. I’m at 45k miles and 4 years, now out of warranty. I tend to keep cars a long time, I’m starting to think I should change the fluid regardless of what Tesla says. So I’m going to say a wash.

Coolant, did it at 100k on my MB, will probably do it at 100k on the Lexus. Again lifetime seems like a long time for the battery coolant considering they use G48, same as MB and BMW in their ICEs. I’ll probably say 100k miles. But no idea what the process is, in an ice I can do it in ~1hr. Let’s say a wash for now but could be longer.

Transmission. No transmission in most EVs. I do transmission fluid every 5 years in the Lexus, 7 in the Subaru and 10 years in the MB. Honestly transmission fluid is the easiest fluid, I don’t even put the LX on my lift for this one. EV wins here (will except for the Porsche that has a transmission)

Oil changes, on the 3 ICEs I probably do 4 a year. I can do all 3 in probably 1.5 hrs. EV wins here

Tires: so far my EVs have gone through tires 20-30% faster then my ICEs. So win for the ICEs.

My LX is by for the most PM heavy and I do fairly short intervals. But the vast majority of the time I drive it is off road it hard in very harsh conditions and towing a 7k lb camper.

So for people that own a vehicle less then 5-7 years it really it comes down to oil changes, which for most people is once a year. So for somone that has a car 7 years you are talking about the cost/time of 7 oil changes in an ICE vs one extra set of tires in an EV.

Like you I primarily turn my own wrenches, they just require so little now for 100s of thousands of miles.

This part is anecdotal, but it appears to me that at this time EV's require more maintenance & more money than a modern ICE to maintain. Which isn't hard to do since ICE literally requires nothing besides oil changes every 7.5K miles to maintain.

I'm not here to argue about ICE maintenance, & I have no doubt that many drove to the car repair shop and paid $395 to have their 'throttle body serviced' (i.e. ripped off), it's just when people claim all of this exorbitant ICE maintenance, I just know better as I track it for tax reasons. It was literally just less than 1 cent per mile for my '08 GMC truck to over 200K miles! And that was me using Amsoil products which are expensive, just cause I like to.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Diff oils in 18 wheelers are rated for 500K miles.
The Allison change interval on a heavy duty trash truck is 350K miles.
The transmission oil in wife's Eco-D is lifetime.

Some of these synthetic fluids just don't have their additive packages used up.

 

[coleAK]

Like you I primarily turn my own wrenches, they just require so little now for 100s of thousands of miles.

This part is anecdotal, but it appears to me that at this time EV's require more maintenance & more money than a modern ICE to maintain. Which isn't hard to do since ICE literally requires nothing besides oil changes every 7.5K miles to maintain.

I'm not here to argue about ICE maintenance, & I have no doubt that many drove to the car repair shop and paid $395 to have their 'throttle body serviced' (i.e. ripped off), it's just when people claim all of this exorbitant ICE maintenance, I just know better as I track it for tax reasons. It was literally just less than 1 cent per mile for my '08 GMC truck to over 200K miles! And that was me using Amsoil products which are expensive, just cause I like to.

I’m looking at my records now on my 2003 MB e class. 19 years 160k miles I’ve done 19 oil changes, 2 diff fluid changes, 1 ATF fluid exchange, 1 coolant exchange, 10 brake fluid exchanges, 1 set of brake pads, one main 12v battery (yes I’m only on my 2nd battery), one ESP alternate 12v battery. 3 sets of summer tires and 2 sets of winter tires. On original starter, alternator, rotors, belts, hoses.

Not including tires If I bought all of these supplies today it would be ~$3k, $700 of that batteries.

Under warranty had: F/R CV boots and an ABS module.