mspohr
Well-Known Member
We are all very impressed with your success, parents, etc.
I was just wondering how this relates to this thread (Basic Minimum Income)?
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I was just wondering how this relates to this thread (Basic Minimum Income)?
I didn't TAKE, I didn't whine about inequalities, I worked hard for the level of success I've attained. it's a very simple formula the rewards go to the ones willing to do what it takes to get ahead. while some were sitting at home watching TV, or in a bar, or just on the corner, I was doing things that I needed to do in order to get ahead.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
MikeQ
Member
Look at it like this. Basic Minimum Income is a disincentive to doing what it requires to be successful. Much like welfare, it makes you okay with mediocrity. We already have too much mediocrity.
DragonWatch
Small FootPrint
I totally agree with your rant, you will never get it ~ never. If you had listened to anything I have said over time here, you would know I squeezed blood out of a turnip to get to where I am.
Despite my sermon and core belief in love of not just the human animal, but all that has been created around us I succeeded. I doubt that you heard my sermon since I gave it to military families and soldiers of the 1st Squadron, 2d ACR back in 1970. Unlike people that state repeatedly that they had to work for everything they have, most if any actually served their country. I enlisted as a Private; worked my way up to sergeant; used the GI Bill to obtain my BA; returned to service and retired as a Field Artillery Officer.
I have had the opportunity to work for a Latino Architect, a black single woman IT manager, and of course I worked with just about every flavor humon on the face of the earth as a soldier.
My wife stated when we married that she was too intelligent to need a college education. I married her anyway
While I was a senior captain she earned her Bachelors of Science and graduated Phi Beta Kappa (solid A's); oh and that was while I was away frequently and two preteens chomping at the bit.Our nineteen year old son was burned to death in an ICE car auto accident.
So, if anyone here knows how to work their way up from nothing. Oh, did I say I spent the 7th and 8th grade in what would be considered Special Education these days? Then there was the labels throughout high school.
My childhood was your typical 50s & 60s middle class upbringing. But thanks to my less than stellar academic achievements in school up through high school, I needed the GI Bill plus a part-time job to get through college. There wasn't any social life to speak of because for every hour in class, I think I spent ten beating the crap into my head.
Despite the hatred, pain and suffering I have endured to obtain my position in life; I cannot through that same hatred, pain and suffering deliberately and willingly stand or in this case sit (at the computer) and state like what you have touted how great I am and that everyone else should have to fight the same way to achieve that which I have over time.
Everyone has an absolutely different mind, religion, physical differences, sexual difference, and location on earth, just to name a fetw. While I was scraping my fingernails as I climbed the granite cliffs in front and above me; I watched and listened to the others around me and I chose to learn. If I had not stopped and watched and listened as well as I did; I would have missed the life of my wife; I would have missed more of my son's life; I almost missed my daughter's life; and I might have been able to save democracy.
Most people want to work to live, and not live to work. My military career was more of living to work:-( I am a very cold hearted bastard because of it:-( I can smell fear/hate and left unchecked I attack it. My family tree goes back farther as a early american than 99% those of you reading this story. My great, great, great uncle murdered in very cold blood a Native American; starting the King Philip's war. His position in the community (3d tear), his religion coupled with fear and hate brought death back on himself and was the spark creating the outbreak of war.
Our population is out of control, our politics are out of control (corrupt), and mother earth is dying. Our backs are against the wall people and hating others because they are different from you or I in one way or another is just plain fear and hate.
Without stopping this fear and hatred we all face in our daily lives today, we will all ensure the death of not just mankind, but mother earth. If your false god tells you that you will be saved; I'll pick up some land in Houston, Texas to sell you at twice the price.
I do not have the best or greatest answer how to solve the problem of a basic wage. But, if we put down our fear and hate, and tackle this problem with a desire to win, we might just succeed. Not everyone is built like you or me, but fearing and hating them does not get us to first base.
@kort677 you have repeatedly attacked or publicly objected to other opinions here. So, is your end result for minimum wage or mother earth what we have seen in Houston, TX; Florida, PR, and Las Vegas? Because if that is the case you are winning.
Got love?
Try finding it, it is a choice
DragonWatch
Small FootPrint
@MikeQ if I had a $1,000 for every fellow officer that said, "the south would rise again," first I would be rich and second, well you get the drift. By making the comment that you just did, means to me that you are in fact okay with mediocrity.
Anyone can recite the same 'ol stuff, it is the one's that see a better place that achieve it.
Do you want to achieve it or drag us down?
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Said it before in this thread, will say it again:
I am fundamentally opposed to GIVING people money for doing nothing more than BREATHING and having a PULSE.
Welfare v2.0. Eff that.
I see the issue from the lens of my father's experience. He spent his entire career working in the oil fields and then as a commercial construction supervisor. No computer skills ever learned, no college or trade school degree.
2008 crisis rolls around and he is eventually laid off as the downturn extended to commercial construction. At the time he was 56 years old, no computer skills, and no one was hiring. Age discrimination is a real problem in that industry. He also lived the lifestyle common of a construction worker, which was no retirement savings, and certianly no pensions or 401k. Construction work is usually feast or famine, so any flush $$ periods got spent during the lean time waiting for the next job.
Going back to school wasn't really an option for him on unemployment, and if he did spend 2-4 years getting trained in a new field, who is going to hire a 58-60 year old entry level college/tech school grad? No one.
In the end it didn't matter how hard of a worker he had been his whole life, it all went down the tubes after the downturn and he was "too old" in today's society to start over. He slogged his way through (with a lot of financial help from me) until he was eligible for Social Security, and then "retired" to our current "basic minimum income" program. Some of those choices were his alone (no retirement savings), but some were imposed on him (economic downturn while he was in his late 50s and age discrimination)
So I can see a scenario where folks careers disappear across an industry due to automation. (Commercial truck drivers for example). Some of those folks will be able to be retrained and can move on to fixing the robot trucks or whatever. But not everyone will be able to make that transition. What do we do with these folks as a society is the question. Do we pay a basic minimum income so at least they are fed and not homeless like we do with our seniors now? Or do we have some other jobs program that overcomes some of the hurdles like the age discrimination my father faced?
It's a very interesting concept and I don't know what all the ramifications would be.
2008 crisis rolls around and he is eventually laid off as the downturn extended to commercial construction. At the time he was 56 years old, no computer skills, and no one was hiring. Age discrimination is a real problem in that industry. He also lived the lifestyle common of a construction worker, which was no retirement savings, and certianly no pensions or 401k. Construction work is usually feast or famine, so any flush $$ periods got spent during the lean time waiting for the next job.
Going back to school wasn't really an option for him on unemployment, and if he did spend 2-4 years getting trained in a new field, who is going to hire a 58-60 year old entry level college/tech school grad? No one.
In the end it didn't matter how hard of a worker he had been his whole life, it all went down the tubes after the downturn and he was "too old" in today's society to start over. He slogged his way through (with a lot of financial help from me) until he was eligible for Social Security, and then "retired" to our current "basic minimum income" program. Some of those choices were his alone (no retirement savings), but some were imposed on him (economic downturn while he was in his late 50s and age discrimination)
So I can see a scenario where folks careers disappear across an industry due to automation. (Commercial truck drivers for example). Some of those folks will be able to be retrained and can move on to fixing the robot trucks or whatever. But not everyone will be able to make that transition. What do we do with these folks as a society is the question. Do we pay a basic minimum income so at least they are fed and not homeless like we do with our seniors now? Or do we have some other jobs program that overcomes some of the hurdles like the age discrimination my father faced?
It's a very interesting concept and I don't know what all the ramifications would be.
MikeQ
Member
@MikeQ if I had a $1,000 for every fellow officer that said, "the south would rise again," first I would be rich and second, well you get the drift. By making the comment that you just did, means to me that you are in fact okay with mediocrity.
Anyone can recite the same 'ol stuff, it is the one's that see a better place that achieve it.
I don't understand.
MikeQ
Member
I think for situations like this some sort of transitional program that gives people the free time and money to retrain is perfectly acceptable and viable. Sounds a lot like welfare which has a 5 year limit. However, you never see people on welfare really investing the time/money in education.
MikeQ
Member
Or maybe you put milestones in place so the inheritance has to be earned?
If my kids were complete deadbeats, I'd probably find something better to do with my estate. If they'd had promise and I knew they would benefit from it, I'd leave it to them.
One of my sons want's to go to medical school. If he can handle it and graduates, he'll probably need an inheritance to pay off medical school.
I have relatives that would destroy themselves if they won lotto or had some appreciable amount of money dumped in their laps. They do the dumbest things I've ever seen with financial windfalls. They would do the same with UBI and still wouldn't be able to support themselves.
Agreed. That in combination with incentives for companies to hire folks coming out of the transition programs could go a long way to helping folks out who may lose a career due to automation, etc.
MikeQ
Member
Got that. I had just responded to him since we'd agreed upthread about increasing the estate tax. I was curious if this was his primary motivation (it's certainly a part of mine).
mspohr
Well-Known Member
So , how do you think it would have affected your life growing up if your family had had a UBI?
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