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Which is the best PG&E TOU Rate for New Installs

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,478
423
auburn, ca
Oh ok... all this stuff with the ITC, SGIP, PG&E TOU, NEM, and NEC is just so much of a headache.

But I agree with your sentiment that the more gas appliances you have, the harder it is to avoid using peak power. I have gas central heating and water heater. But my MIL is always cooking up a storm around 6pm. Maybe I just need to convert my cooktop to gas and solve a bunch of problems.
When I did my kitchen remodel last year, I took out the electric range and put in gas, which is what everyone I talked to said was the best.

Yes, this stuff has lots of different angles, which I keep learning about.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,521
895
East Bay NorCal
When I did my kitchen remodel last year, I took out the electric range and put in gas, which is what everyone I talked to said was the best.

Yes, this stuff has lots of different angles, which I keep learning about.


Lol everyone except that one dude here that thinks 100% electric is the way to go...

Is the permitting to run the extra gas piping to the kitchen tough? I have a slab foundation and I'm not sure how people extend their lines into the living areas without trenching.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,478
423
auburn, ca
Lol everyone except that one dude here that thinks 100% electric is the way to go...

Is the permitting to run the extra gas piping to the kitchen tough? I have a slab foundation and I'm not sure how people extend their lines into the living areas without trenching.
I am lucky, I do not have a slab foundation.

But, seems one can just snake any pipe through the walls.

My wife and I currently have ZERO and I mean ZERO desire to have an EV!!! When we pack up our family, kids and grandkids for our 500 mile trip to Disneyland, first we have and love our mini van. Second, we make or quick 5 minute stop for gas, even though we probably do not need to stop, but a good time for a potty break and a little leg stretching. No way ever would I want to have to add to a trip but can I find a place, and have the time to charge batteries. Just not us, no matter what the government does.
 
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MJ_CA_2019

Member
Aug 19, 2020
137
34
Central CA
IMO, for most, when you have gas, one is not comparing apples to apples. I have a 99.9% electric house. 10 heat pump mini split heads. Electric dryer. Only things gas are my hot water, range, and spa.

I also have a large house. So, the amount of electricity I use to heat this home is a lot. And this year has been way down since we so far, as you know, have had a super mild winter. I will need to run my heat pumps 24/7, so the higher ev2-a rates are a BIG deal.

So for me, the inability to recharge batteries in the winter for the amount I use is a big deal.

I can't modify my previous post but I'll update that I pulled my numbers from the Tesla App quickly and I believe fell victim to how that data is represented if you shift modes during the year. So totals are correct but the peak numbers likely only represent the second half of the year when I committed to running on Time-Based mode exclusively.

I get that gas / electric vs. electric only power sources makes comparisons challenging. If I had all electric then I would have sized my PV system differently. For me it's production vs. usage and where they happen during the day.

How are you coming to your conclusion that batteries won't keep you from using during peak rates?

Here are two graphs from opposite ends of the production calendar.
Note that the vast majority of my production takes place prior to 3:00 pm

Are you saying you've calculated that your Peak use will exceed your Sunrise to 3:00 pm production consistently in the winter?

I previously lived in AZ with a large TOU (and no PV / Storage) and the mantra there was "pre-cool" your house in the summer.
Have you considered doing the opposite? "pre-heating" your home, shifting usage outside of peak, etc.

0


0
 

Merrill

Merrill
Jan 23, 2013
3,855
1,347
Sonoma, California
I am lucky, I do not have a slab foundation.

But, seems one can just snake any pipe through the walls.

My wife and I currently have ZERO and I mean ZERO desire to have an EV!!! When we pack up our family, kids and grandkids for our 500 mile trip to Disneyland, first we have and love our mini van. Second, we make or quick 5 minute stop for gas, even though we probably do not need to stop, but a good time for a potty break and a little leg stretching. No way ever would I want to have to add to a trip but can I find a place, and have the time to charge batteries. Just not us, no matter what the government does.
Sometimes it is not all about how quick can I get there, I will never have another ICE car.
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,478
423
auburn, ca
I can't modify my previous post but I'll update that I pulled my numbers from the Tesla App quickly and I believe fell victim to how that data is represented if you shift modes during the year. So totals are correct but the peak numbers likely only represent the second half of the year when I committed to running on Time-Based mode exclusively.

I get that gas / electric vs. electric only power sources makes comparisons challenging. If I had all electric then I would have sized my PV system differently. For me it's production vs. usage and where they happen during the day.

How are you coming to your conclusion that batteries won't keep you from using during peak rates?

Here are two graphs from opposite ends of the production calendar.
Note that the vast majority of my production takes place prior to 3:00 pm

Are you saying you've calculated that your Peak use will exceed your Sunrise to 3:00 pm production consistently in the winter?

I previously lived in AZ with a large TOU (and no PV / Storage) and the mantra there was "pre-cool" your house in the summer.
Have you considered doing the opposite? "pre-heating" your home, shifting usage outside of peak, etc.

0


0
In the winter now, when it rains, I can produce like 3 to 5 kwh for the day. But, when my heaters running 24/7, etc., I use about 60 kwh per day. So you can see that even with 3 batteries on my heating, I would easily use up in a day, and then I have nothing. So, since I have to run 24 by 7, I get to pay the super high rates from 3 pm to 12 pm since I have no battery suds.

Yep, these games, pre heat or pre cool, maybe on my list to try. But even then, there is just no way I can keep the house heated in the winter. Summer, I peaked once at 96kwh for the day, so not worried about being able to recharge the batteries,

And what is worse, is my only reason to consider batteries is for power outages. So this makes it worse since I really need to have them in backup mode, since I have no solar worth beans. This is why, since I get under SGIP ER, I am asking SGIP, Tesla, etc about charging from the Grid, which SGIP allows at up to 25%.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,521
895
East Bay NorCal
Are you saying you've calculated that your Peak use will exceed your Sunrise to 3:00 pm production consistently in the winter? ... the mantra there was "pre-cool" your house in the summer. Have you considered doing the opposite? "pre-heating" your home, shifting usage outside of peak, etc.
0

I'm just looking at my daily usage during winter/summer. I can get through a single sunny day just fine; but if there's cloudcover, I can't get enough to handle the peak spike that occurs between about 4pm and 11pm. Basically I just want to pre-load the PW's entering any day where I don't think I'm getting enough sunlight.

We tried to do the "pre cooling" thing in 2019 and 2020 since we had the Nest Thermostats and my wife hated it. The house got way too hot since the "peak" lasts so long. I have vaulted ceilings instead of an attic so I can't put that reflective heat stuff everywhere. But I know in the Summertime, my ACs are the main culprit. I got the highest SEER units I could afford with the lowest-energy using air handler I could find. But I was still in the "you suck" energy tier in 2019 and 2020. PG&E let me know numerous times how bad of a homeowner I was.

I'm in agreement with her... the PoCos want people to do some absolutely idiotic behavior modification to make things work. PG&E even suggests not cooking warm meals at dinnertime (I'm not joking). They're airing these stupid ads non-stop showing actors storing energy in pots/pans and wrapping wind in balloons to encourage people to change their lifestyles around peak energy demand. Like what mythical BS world are they living in?

Anyway, I was hoping solar + Powerwalls would be a real (unlike storing energy in pots and pans) solution to use technology instead of strange behavior modification. But I couldn't get enough panels even though I got the highest wattage ones offered by Sunrun. If there are clouds in the next-day forecast, I'd like to take some of that low-cost overnight wind/geothermal energy from PG&E and turn it into a normal living day instead of cooking at 3pm and doing laundry at 1am.

Edit: Yes, I know the overnight off-peak energy from PG&E is like 2/3 natural gas and imported dirty energy from outside of California. But it's so cheap compared to 8pm!
 
Last edited:
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wjgjr

Active Member
May 11, 2020
1,218
952
Silver Spring, MD
What was that 5 year ITC thing you mentioned earlier? It sounded like the ITC only requires the batteries to be self-generation-charged for 5 years.
As far as I can tell (and at one point I thought this 5-year rule was applicable) there is no 5-year rule for the residential ITC. There is a 5-year vesting period for the commercial ITC, but the residential ITC does not have any such rule. To me, this means that you likely would need to use the PWs (and all the other equipment) where you claim the credit only with solar (or other qualifying energy generation) for their lifetime. The flip side is if for some reason your system is damaged or destroyed inside five years, you would not need to pay any part of the credit back as the commercial credit would require.
 

mbp11

Member
Jan 30, 2019
400
216
SF Bay Area
I have to admit, I am very stupid about PGE and the influence of solar on my bill. I got solar and a whole house battery to reduce my energy bill in 2016 and minimize blackouts, which happen several times a year in my city of Pleasanton, even in the urban environment. At that time I had to switch to a solar plan. It seemed to reduce my energy bills somewhat, but I could never understand their bill and the Net Metering Program. Fast forward to a year and a half ago and I bought a Tesla Model X and began to charge at night at the low rate (which for me is 23 cents a KWH) and I had to move to the Home Charging EV2-A account. Despite my solar panels and exporting power to the grid, my power bills went up. What the heck?

So I emailed PG&E and explained that I did not understand the bill and net metering, where in my bill lists my credit for exporting to the grid. I was not expecting a reply but after a week, I received some boilerplate explanation and added at the bottom of the language was the statement to the effect that I was not getting any credit for the power I sent to the grid, that the solar I produced was to reduce the amount of power my house was using during the day. The excess going to the grid, well, it was going to the grid and I was not getting credit.

Is this your understanding as well, or do I have it entirely wrong?
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,247
415
95762
for power exported to the grid, you get credit towards your annual NEM bill, not your monthly bill.
Make sure they are crediting your NEM. You should see the balance on your monthly bill. When I installed PWs (had solar before), they messed up my billing and I wasn't getting credit. Took several phone calls to make them understand. They finally fixed after 3 months and I got a retroactive bill with the credits applied.
 

jboy210

Supporting Member
Dec 2, 2016
5,102
3,171
Northern California
Lol everyone except that one dude here that thinks 100% electric is the way to go...

Is the permitting to run the extra gas piping to the kitchen tough? I have a slab foundation and I'm not sure how people extend their lines into the living areas without trenching.

Have you looked under your range/cooktop to see if gas is already there? When we remodeled they ripped out our electric cooktop, and sitting right in the wall was a gas line. So swapping the electric cooktop to gas was a breeze. I assume the line was put in by the builder, which was great since the house is on a slab.

We also have capped off gas outlet pipes pointing out of the wall into the yard. My neighbors have used these for their backyard grills, fire pits, and pizza ovens. I guess having gas in the yard was a big thing in the 70s. Maybe to heat a groovy hot tub?
 

mbp11

Member
Jan 30, 2019
400
216
SF Bay Area
for power exported to the grid, you get credit towards your annual NEM bill, not your monthly bill.
Make sure they are crediting your NEM. You should see the balance on your monthly bill. When I installed PWs (had solar before), they messed up my billing and I wasn't getting credit. Took several phone calls to make them understand. They finally fixed after 3 months and I got a retroactive bill with the credits applied.

Thanks for this info, where the #%^&* do you see this in their 6 page bill?
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,247
415
95762
Thanks for this info, where the #%^&* do you see this in their 6 page bill?

I no longer get that on my "small" bill as I have PWs. As I recall, there is a section which gives you the current NEM balance and a monthly itemization of the charge or credit by month
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,247
415
95762
I have to admit, I am very stupid about PGE and the influence of solar on my bill. I got solar and a whole house battery to reduce my energy bill in 2016 and minimize blackouts, which happen several times a year in my city of Pleasanton, even in the urban environment. At that time I had to switch to a solar plan. It seemed to reduce my energy bills somewhat, but I could never understand their bill and the Net Metering Program. Fast forward to a year and a half ago and I bought a Tesla Model X and began to charge at night at the low rate (which for me is 23 cents a KWH) and I had to move to the Home Charging EV2-A account. Despite my solar panels and exporting power to the grid, my power bills went up. What the heck?

So I emailed PG&E and explained that I did not understand the bill and net metering, where in my bill lists my credit for exporting to the grid. I was not expecting a reply but after a week, I received some boilerplate explanation and added at the bottom of the language was the statement to the effect that I was not getting any credit for the power I sent to the grid, that the solar I produced was to reduce the amount of power my house was using during the day. The excess going to the grid, well, it was going to the grid and I was not getting credit.

Is this your understanding as well, or do I have it entirely wrong?

the more I think about this, I don't know how the electrical portion of your monthly bill could go up. You should only be paying ~$10/month for electricity which is the grid connection fee. The NBCs and the NEM charges are all accumulated towards your annual true-up bill
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,263
5,891
Los Altos, CA
the more I think about this, I don't know how the electrical portion of your monthly bill could go up. You should only be paying ~$10/month for electricity which is the grid connection fee. The NBCs and the NEM charges are all accumulated towards your annual true-up bill
He could be on the Sonoma Clean Power CCA and if his solar generation credit was less on EV2, he may have had positive generation bills that he had to pay month by month. That is definitely my situation on the Silicon Valley Clean Energy CCA.
 

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