Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Why does Tesla not use 4680s on the Model S, And is it the same reason on why the Plaid+ was cancelled?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
So far the 4680s are the worst performing batteries Tesla has ever had
Maybe its because they are so new, and thats probably the reason they first made the Model Y and I think Model 3 too use the 4680s as a test som they could launch the $150k Plaid+ with them. Tesla said that they would add atleast 16% of more range and store 5x the amount of energy.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: AlanSubie4Life
Maybe its because they are so new, and thats probably the reason they first made the Model Y and I think Model 3 too use the 4680s as a test som they could launch the $150k Plaid+ with them. Tesla said that they would add atleast 16% of more range and store 5x the amount of energy.
Model 3 doesn’t have 4680s. Teslas claims were misleading at best. It was 5x more energy per cell. Which considering the cells are 6x larger than the 2170s, no surprise.

The 16% more range was in reference to the battery chemistry used at the time. They missed the target on that, and the other batteries have since further improved.
 
Maybe its because they are so new, and thats probably the reason they first made the Model Y and I think Model 3 too use the 4680s as a test som they could launch the $150k Plaid+ with them. Tesla said that they would add atleast 16% of more range and store 5x the amount of energy.
Tesla has a lengthy track record of saying things that are later found to be untrue. The power density of the 4680 cells are but only one small example.
 
Tesla has a lengthy track record of saying things that are later found to be untrue. The power density of the 4680 cells are but only one small example.
Sigh. Those were predictions. Not fact. And Tesla may still reach those targets. Or not. But calling it untrue is a complete misunderstanding of the situation.
 
Sigh. Those were predictions. Not fact. And Tesla may still reach those targets. Or not. But calling it untrue is a complete misunderstanding of the situation.
It's been 4 years of prediction since the 2020 Battery Day Unveiling. It might come true some day in the future, but after 4 years, it is still untrue.

Same with FSD since 2016. It might be true some day in the future but after 8 years it is still untrue.

In the mean time, when GM sold handsfree Super Cruise in 2017, it has been handsfree from day 1 for the past 7 years. You do not have to wait for 8 years to see if it's handsfree in an uncertain day in the future.

Predictions needs to be accurate!
 
  • Like
Reactions: aerodyne and GSP
Most obvious reason for me not to use the 4680 (or even the 2170) on the Model S/X is the available space under the car.

The platform of Model S/X was designed a while ago now, with 18650 cells having a height of 65mm, and probably without any perspective at that time on how cell sizes would evolve.

Redesigning it with cells of 70 or 80mm would probably mean significant changes on the platform, which given the low production volume does not make sense for Tesla.

On the contrary Model Y was probably designed from the beginning to be able to use 4680 cells, even if the production started - or is still done - with 2170.
 
Most obvious reason for me not to use the 4680 (or even the 2170) on the Model S/X is the available space under the car.

The platform of Model S/X was designed a while ago now, with 18650 cells having a height of 65mm, and probably without any perspective at that time on how cell sizes would evolve.

Redesigning it with cells of 70 or 80mm would probably mean significant changes on the platform, which given the low production volume does not make sense for Tesla.

On the contrary Model Y was probably designed from the beginning to be able to use 4680 cells, even if the production started - or is still done - with 2170.
Yes this is the answer. Also Tesla has supply contracts for the 18650. In the end the form factor is a small factor. What matters is the cell chemistry and that continually evolves regardless of form factor.
 
Another consideration that is often overlooked is heat dissipation. It is likely easier to design a pack with many small cells to get the best thermal cooling. So if you want the absolute best performance AND the ability to maintain that performance, smaller cells are likely part of that design. That design also includes a fantastic cooling system. It does increase the cost. You increase the cell size to reduce costs. So the 4680 while perhaps not quite there yet, should create the lowest-cost packs in time.

There are a lot of other variables to target a specific vehicle and the objectives you want - often objectives that improve one cause another objective to be reduced! Objectives include lower cost, faster charging, longevity, higher power output, higher power output over time (i.e. track time), safety, improved reliability, reduced use of hard-to-obtain minerals, high power density, weight, and more. Different cell sizes, cell chemistry, pack designs, and cooling systems make this a very complex problem to optimize for a specific vehicle. Those companies that don't bother to optimize for a specific vehicle market segment, end up with a non-competitive vehicle (higher cost, lower range, etc.).
 
It's been 4 years of prediction since the 2020 Battery Day Unveiling. It might come true some day in the future, but after 4 years, it is still untrue.
But everything presented at battery was the plans over the next ~6 years. So, they still have two more years to meet their predictions. (Of course, it is possible that they will be late, or even fail, to meet their predications.)
 
Performance concerns aside, Tesla is feeding most (if not all) of their 4680 production into Cybertruck. It’s not clear when they’ll have excess capacity as they ramp both CT and cell production in parallel.
What's the explanation that whenever 4680 is installed, the range is too short: first from Model Y with 269 miles, then now CyberBeast for 320 miles (Cybertruck was predicted with 500 miles).

It could be that there are not enough cells produced to stuff them in but a tear down on model Y shows that there's no extra space for any more cells!
 
All data around 4680 was advertising.
Made to fool people to think it was that cell would save the world.

Packing the same chemistry in a better format might give slight benifits in terms of range and energy density in the pack.

The real win would be costs. The number of cells reduced by far means a cheaper pack to build.

But Tesla changed the chemistry to NMC.

All years before Tesla/Panasonic used NCA in their packs as it has been outstanding in energy density.
But now they changed to a chemistry that has lower energy density than the win by 4680 so the net result is a loss of capacity.
Also, as it looks, it charges slower and most probably deliver less power so Tesla would need to change the chemistry back to NCA to get on top when it comes to
Energy desnity and probably the same for power and vharging speeds.
 
Also, as it looks, it charges slower and most probably deliver less power so Tesla would need to change the chemistry back to NCA to get on top when it comes to
Energy desnity and probably the same for power and vharging speeds.
A big part of that is probably cooling. Basic physics that you can’t cool as effectively the less surface area you have.
 
A big part of that is probably cooling. Basic physics that you can’t cool as effectively the less surface area you have.
I agree.

At the same time Tesla/Elon promised they had that part covered when they did bring the 4680 in to the light.

We also see the larger NMC pouch cells in other car brands charging really fast.
These large cells should be hardwr to cool ( because of the dimensions and the distance from the cell paet furthest away from the cooling surface.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlanSubie4Life
It's been 4 years of prediction since the 2020 Battery Day Unveiling. It might come true some day in the future, but after 4 years, it is still untrue.

Same with FSD since 2016. It might be true some day in the future but after 8 years it is still untrue.

In the mean time, when GM sold handsfree Super Cruise in 2017, it has been handsfree from day 1 for the past 7 years. You do not have to wait for 8 years to see if it's handsfree in an uncertain day in the future.

Predictions needs to be accurate!
I predict Super Cruise will still be JUST doing hands free on the freeway, and nothing else new, in another 5 years. (And no, I dont mean in new car for sale in 2029, I mean in the current fleet.)