Why FSD is still level 2, compare to MB's level 3 and hyundai/kia's level 3 next year?

[ZenRockGarden]

Sure, regulations need to change in addition to technology advancing. I more mean in a hypothetical future as currently no L3 0mph system exists either.


I still disagree that these limited domains are niche. If anything I would argue today’s FSD Beta features are niche — how many customers actually want to be fully legally responsible for supervising an erratic robot driver that still routinely makes basic mistakes and attempts maneuvers it has low likelihood of succeeding like unprotected blind left turns? I would argue more people want a conditional L3 assist for traffic jams and red lights even if it requires handing back control with 6 seconds of notice. And in CA Mercedes does take legal responsibility while in said mode.



Just to clarify, you are aware that Drive Pilot has a pretty good L2 assist for the situations that fall outside this domain, and it gets regular software updates OTA, right? A lot of these talking points about Drive Pilot and Blue / Super cruise insinuate that you don’t get any features outside pre mapped zones.

The topic is the level-3 systems and why is Tesla "behind". Thus I discussed just how narrow the actual use of L3 for these cars.

I see that you're excited with an L3 which basically can only handle low speed highway duty playing follow-the-leader in traffic during the day in ideal lighting conditions and weather. OK. But basically Tesla can do that exact same job, they just haven't bothered to get the L3 label for such a narrow use case because Tesla is focused on solving the full general driving problem.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sure, regulations need to change in addition to technology advancing. I more mean in a hypothetical future as currently no L3 0mph system exists either.


I still disagree that these limited domains are niche. If anything I would argue today’s FSD Beta features are niche — how many customers actually want to be fully legally responsible for supervising an erratic robot driver that still routinely makes basic mistakes and attempts maneuvers it has low likelihood of succeeding like unprotected blind left turns? I would argue more people want a conditional L3 assist for traffic jams and red lights even if it requires handing back control with 6 seconds of notice. And in CA Mercedes does take legal responsibility while in said mode.

Actually while their initial PR said that, their reps were much more careful during their California demo event.

"Mercedes was careful not to explicitly say that they take liability for things that happen when Drive Pilot is activated. Instead, they repeatedly stated “we stand behind our product.”"

It remains to be seen what their final terms are when the feature is released (what the actual paperwork says, not their PR, which is not legally binding).

Hands-off with the first true hands-free car in the US, and it's not Tesla

Mercedes' system is Level 3 certified in CA/NV, so you can legally watch movies in traffic. It's amazing how quickly I got comfortable doing so.

electrek.co

Just to clarify, you are aware that Drive Pilot has a pretty good L2 assist for the situations that fall outside this domain, and it gets regular software updates OTA, right? A lot of these talking points about Drive Pilot and Blue / Super cruise insinuate that you don’t get any features outside pre mapped zones.

I don't know about lower versions of Drive Pilot, but Blue/Supercruise does not work outside premapped roads.

 

[Tam]

The topic is the level-3 systems and why is Tesla "behind". Thus I discussed just how narrow the actual use of L3 for these cars.

I see that you're excited with an L3 which basically can only handle low speed highway duty playing follow-the-leader in traffic during the day in ideal lighting conditions and weather. OK. But basically Tesla can do that exact same job, they just haven't bothered to get the L3 label for such a narrow use case because Tesla is focused on solving the full general driving problem.

Tesla engineer revealed to the court about Tesla video demo:

"To create the video, the Tesla used 3D mapping on a predetermined route from a house in Menlo Park, California, to Tesla’s then-headquarters in Palo Alto, he said.

Drivers intervened to take control in test runs, he said.
When trying to show the Model X could park itself with no driver, a test car crashed into a fence in Tesla’s parking lot, he said."

Tesla could do it on video that edited out the crashing to the fence part.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/17/tech/tesla-self-driving-video-staged/index.html

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Tesla engineer revealed to the court about Tesla video demo:

"To create the video, the Tesla used 3D mapping on a predetermined route from a house in Menlo Park, California, to Tesla’s then-headquarters in Palo Alto, he said.

Drivers intervened to take control in test runs, he said.
When trying to show the Model X could park itself with no driver, a test car crashed into a fence in Tesla’s parking lot, he said."

Tesla could do it on video that edited out the crashing to the fence part.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/17/tech/tesla-self-driving-video-staged/index.html

Hello, the year 2016 wants it's hilarious attempt at a relevant rebuttal back

(The case your are referencing is about events from 7 years ago)

 

[Tam]

Hello, the year 2016 wants it's hilarious attempt at a relevant rebuttal back.

You mean Tesla competency has achieved the "mind-blowing" level in 2023 or 7 years later as demonstrated by Elon Musk 3 months ago?

Elon Musk Stops Self-Driving Tesla From Lurching Into Intersection In Demo, Musk Fans Cheer

Tesla's new FSD v12 almost blew a red light and ran into an intersection.

www.vice.com

 

[ZenRockGarden]

You mean Tesla competency has achieved the "mind-blowing" level in 2023 or 7 years later as demonstrated by Elon Musk?

Elon Musk Stops Self-Driving Tesla From Lurching Into Intersection In Demo, Musk Fans Cheer

Tesla's new FSD v12 almost blew a red light and ran into an intersection.

www.vice.com

I mean you were trying to trash talk with info from 7 years ago while we're discussing the world of today. Glad to see you've found a more relevant item in your little google search bar and reading the headline. Feel free to actually learn about the current state of FSD any time you like. I'm bored with you. Bye

 

[Tam]

I mean you were trying to trash talk with info from 7 years ago while we're discussing the world of today. Glad to see you've found a more relevant item in your little google search bar and reading the headline. Feel free to actually learn about the current state of FSD any time you like. I'm bored with you. Bye

The present state of fsd is just like 2016 demo: if human driver does not intervene, it will crash (not computer virtual event, it's a physical collision).

That's in contrast when L3 is in operation.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The present state of fsd is just like 2016 demo: if human driver does not intervene, it will crash (not computer virtual event, it's a physical collision).

That's in contrast when L3 is in operation.

That's like saying the state of lane keeping is the same as it was a decade ago when the state of the art implementations from other brands would ping pong between lines. I think it misses the point that there have been a lot of progress made.

Or as relevant to the different levels, it's like saying the state of AVs are the same between Uber back when it ran over a pedestrian, Cruise when it did recently, and Waymo given they are all L4.

 

[Tam]

That's like saying the state of lane keeping is the same as it was a decade ago when the state of the art implementations from other brands would ping pong between lines. I think it misses the point that there have been a lot of progress made.

My assessment is relevant to the L2 vs L3 in the topic of this thread.

Yes, you can make lots of progress in L2. Yes, Autosteer has been much better.

But it's still not L3 even after 100 years of perfection of Autosteer.

 

[Tam]

Or as relevant to the different levels, it's like saying the state of AVs are the same between Uber back when it ran over a pedestrian, Cruise when it did recently, and Waymo given they are all L4.

The criteria for L4 does not require an intervention from a human driver.

Waymo and Cruise are still on trial to prove that they are so good that will be certified as L4 someday.

Unfortunately for Cruise, we now know it still requires human intervention because of the issues. If not in the car, then it's in a remote location.

That's not the case for the L3 operation of today for human intervention in the car or in a remote office. L3 requires no intervention during its operation. It does require intervention when it is not in L3 (such as when the driver turns on L2 because L3 does not have an equivalent of Navigation of Autopilot with auto exits for interchange ramps and exit ramps).

 

[stopcrazypp]

My assessment is relevant to the L2 vs L3 in the topic of this thread.

Yes, you can make lots of progress in L2. Yes, Autosteer has been much better.

But it's still not L3 even after 100 years of perfection of Autosteer.

So you are of the opinion the work made by FSD Beta toward door-to-door L2 is zero progress toward eventual L3 or L4? I'm not sure a lot of people have the same view. The work done to handle the perception, the decision making, and mechanics of handling the turns is all work that is necessary to support L3/L4 operation. There have been major improvements made there since 2016.

Sure a car with only dumb cruise control or adaptive cruise will never be able to do L3 or L4, but that is not true of the case of a system capable of door-to-door L2 (they have at least the suite necessary to achieve all the different maneuvers).

 

[chillaban]

Actually while their initial PR said that, their reps were much more careful during their California demo event.

"Mercedes was careful not to explicitly say that they take liability for things that happen when Drive Pilot is activated. Instead, they repeatedly stated “we stand behind our product.”"

It remains to be seen what their final terms are when the feature is released (what the actual paperwork says, not their PR, which is not legally binding).

Hands-off with the first true hands-free car in the US, and it's not Tesla

Mercedes' system is Level 3 certified in CA/NV, so you can legally watch movies in traffic. It's amazing how quickly I got comfortable doing so.

electrek.co

I don't know about lower versions of Drive Pilot, but Blue/Supercruise does not work outside premapped roads.

This is totally false. I have a F-150 Lightning as well, and its “blue cruise hands on” mode works in a private underground parking garage. It just has around a 5 second steering nag. You can mindlessly tug the wheel.

Even the “pre mapped” hands free mode is no longer actually pre mapped. It’s just an allow list based off the road type, basically exactly the same criteria that Navigate On Autopilot is offered (divided limited access highways)

 

[Tam]

So you are of the opinion the work made by FSD Beta toward door-to-door L2 is zero progress toward eventual L3 or L4? I'm not sure a lot of people have the same view. The work done to handle the perception, the decision making, and mechanics of handling the turns is all work that is necessary to support L3/L4 operation.

Cruise has made lots of progress but with its kind of progress, it's doubtful it'll ever be certified as L4 if it doesn't know how to change.

Same with Tesla's progress.

 

[Tam]

This is totally false. I have a F-150 Lightning as well, and its “blue cruise hands on” mode works in a private underground parking garage. It just has around a 5 second steering nag. You can mindlessly tug the wheel.

Even the “pre mapped” hands free mode is no longer actually pre mapped. It’s just an allow list based off the road type, basically exactly the same criteria that Navigate On Autopilot is offered (divided limited access highways)

The purpose of BlueCruise is handsfree:

"BlueCruise allows for true hands-free driving on 97% of controlled access highways in the U.S. and Canada in areas known as Blue Zones."

Once it is not in "Blue Zones," it's no longer handsfree.

 

[Tam]

...no longer actually pre mapped...

The only company that I know of quitting HD mapping is Xpeng. Instead of continuing like GM, Ford HD maps, it wants to switch to Tesla's method of HD-map-free:

XPeng starts removing HD maps from Tesla FSD-like feature in China | TechCrunch

XPeng is often called the Chinese challenger to Tesla for its efforts to bring advanced driving capabilities to its electric vehicles. It's now getting a

techcrunch.com

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is totally false. I have a F-150 Lightning as well, and its “blue cruise hands on” mode works in a private underground parking garage. It just has around a 5 second steering nag. You can mindlessly tug the wheel.

Even the “pre mapped” hands free mode is no longer actually pre mapped. It’s just an allow list based off the road type, basically exactly the same criteria that Navigate On Autopilot is offered (divided limited access highways)

When talking about BlueCruise and Supercruise, we are referring to the handsfree mode which seems to be how all the articles refer to it, as well as Ford's own website.

https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/ford-technology/driver-assist-features/ford-bluecruise-frequently-asked-questions-faqs/

The hands-on mode I don't believe is called BlueCruise, because none of the articles refer to them as such. Instead the manual just calls it adaptive cruise control with lane centering:

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/vdirsnet/OwnerManual/Home/Content?variantid=8530&languageCode=en&countryCode=USA&Uid=G2166921&ProcUid=G2157463&userMarket=usa&div=f&vFilteringEnabled=False&buildtype=web

In that manual, BlueCruise seems to refer exclusively to the handsfree mode.

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/vdirsnet/OwnerManual/Home/Content?variantid=8530&languageCode=EN&countryCode=USA&Uid=G2321947&ProcUid=G2321948&userMarket=USA&div=f&vCode=&vFilteringEnabled=False&buildtype=web

I'm not familiar with how it works, but digging around the manual, if you don't buy the BlueCruise subscription, you still get normal lane centering, which seems to be what you are calling "Blue Cruise hands on" mode.

As for Supercruise, lane centering isn't offered at all when outside of premapped areas and Supercruise is not active (only LKA is available):

Lane keeping assist in non-SuperCruise mapped roads?

www.cadillacforums.com