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Will M3 be as luxurious/optioned as the MS?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by TravelSD80, Apr 13, 2016.

  1. TravelSD80

    TravelSD80 Member

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    #1 TravelSD80, Apr 13, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
    I have a reservation for the M3, and can't wait to get the car. I think the MS is a great car, but frankly I don't need anything that big or expensive. My plan was to get a lot (not all) options on the M3.

    Biggest Battery, leather, pano roof, dual motor, AP, premium interior, premium metallic paint, 72A charger.

    Don't want: Bigger wheels, premium audio, ludicrous mode, air suspension.

    My question is, what's the best guess for Tesla limiting features/upgrades/battery on the M3 to not cannibalize MS sales? If Tesla offered nearly every feature of the MS on the M3, then the audience for the MS would shrink to just those that want a bigger car or more seating.
     
  2. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Member

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    As Tesla announced the design and feature changes of the Model S recently, they also raised the price a bit to keep a gap between the high end of Model 3 builds and the base Model S.
     
  3. Drivin

    Drivin Member

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    Absolutely

    With the huge economies of scale of the S and the production experience of the X, they will be offer the luxury and options of the S for half the price.

    Remember tesla isn't in this to make money. They are doing this to usher in the world of ev for the masses.
     
  4. Nevek

    Nevek Overt Member

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    "Remember tesla isn't in this to make money. They are doing this to usher in the world of ev for the masses."

    I'm pretty sure that making money eventually is a part of the plan. After all, money is basically how our species allocate resources. We are fortunate that it isn't their ONLY goal.
     
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  5. Config

    Config Member

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    Every noble goal will eventually fail once you run out of money.
     
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  6. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    I'm pretty sure you'll have the ability to get most of your want list. There's no way the largest 3 battery will be as large as the largest contemporary S/X battery in terms of capacity - because it has to fit in a smaller space. Of course, the 3 will also be more efficient, so you might get close to the same maximum range, maybe.

    The other one that's questionable is the 72A charger. I don't think anyone has any idea what sort of charger will come on board the 3, or what upgrades might be available. There's a pretty good chance a high speed option will show up, though - it makes sense for Tesla to enhance the capacity of the destination charger network as well as to users that drive a lot of miles.

    I'm also not sure what you'd define as a Premuim interior - Tesla has used the Premium package to mean several different sets of things at various points on the S and X, with no common themes that I can see. I'm sure they'll offer some sort of upgrade package, but it might or might not resemble either what they are offering in the current Premium package or what they'll be offering as a Premium package for the S then.

    I'd bet on the rest of your want list being available - several of them were mentioned by Tesla folks during the unveiling or showed up on the Alpha cars. Air suspension is a definite option, too - specifically tweeted by Elon.

    I'm sure the S will continue to be a faster car, in addition to the more seating and more storage and larger car you mentioned (which isn't to say a P80D 3 can't be faster than last year's P85D - just not faster than next year's PXXXD (or is it PXXXQ?))

    However, as long as they are turning a profit at the 3's ASP, I'm not sure Tesla is that worried about cannibalizing S sales. If they're battery limited at that time as they are now, more 3s in the mix means more electric cars sold for them, if not necessarily more profit.
    Walter
     
  7. TravelSD80

    TravelSD80 Member

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    Walter, thanks for the detailed reply. Glad to hear you think most of my 'wants' will be available. I was just worried Tesla would very much restrict possible upgrades to keep people buying the MS that really wanted a well appointed car. Does the air suspension really make that much difference for the normal driver? I can see if you have a high grade driveway and need extra clearance, or other routine road obstacles. But for normal city/freeway driving I'm hard pushed to see what the extra $$ would do for me.
     
  8. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    It al depends on the details. Air suspension is said to be smoother on the S, but that's more about tuning than the physics of air. An adjustable suspension is said to be worth about 3% more range on highways - achieved by lowering the car closer to the ground at higher speeds. And of course, if you go places with steep driveways or lots of snow or other obstacles, being able to raise the car can be the difference between expensive repairs/being stuck and going merrily on your way. My driveway appears to be near the limit for a metal spring Model S I think (not an easy thing to figure out without fancy tools I don't have,) so I'll probably have to get Air.

    We know the 3 is getting one (presumably as an option) because Elon tweeted it in response to a question about horrible roads in India.

    What would be really interesting (and plausible for the S in that time frame and a higher level 3 I think) is something like Mercedes is fiddling with on top end cars now - stereo cameras see speed bumps and potholes coming, and control the spring/rebound rates when a wheel hits it so it doesn't jolt the rest of the car. That's beyond the capacity of the current S suspension, and the tech is still very cutting edge right now. I think Cadillac's magic shock absorbers (containing fluid with a variable viscosity that changes based on the magnetic field it is in at that moment) might be the best technology to build such a system off of, though - again, an air suspension in and of itself isn't particularly tied to the performance.
    Walter
     
  9. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    Gigafactories, Auto Factories, Service Centers,Stores, Superchargers are not free.

    Transitioning the world to electric transportation is going to be very very expensive. They need profits to fuel the EV Revolution.
     
  10. favo

    favo Model 3 Reservation Holder

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    I really hope they don't hold back many features on Model 3. They can make some features optional and charge whatever they need to cover expenses/make a profit. If certain hardware features roll out first on Model S/X, I have no issue with that, but don't dumb down Model 3 to preserve Model S/X sales.

    In particular, I care about the performance and tech/AP/safety features. If they want to reserve some fancy wood trim options for Model S, no worries. For software features, roll out first on S/X would be OK, as long as it makes it to Model 3 before too long (assuming relevant hardware is present).
     
  11. Drivin

    Drivin Member

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    Right those things are not free and yet they managed to build them without any profit

    Look at how Amazon has managed "profits"
     
  12. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    Tesla and Amazon both had profits but not net profits, because they were re-investing their profits in growth.

    And Tesla managed to draw outside capital because Model S is profitable.

    They did not build their business by giving away product because "they did not care about profits."
     
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  13. Drivin

    Drivin Member

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    That's funny!
    By your definition anytime you sell something you are profitable as long as you don't count all of your costs!

    I got to remember that one!

    Funny that you believe that retail companies like amazon don't have "loss leaders" to drive traffic.
     
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  14. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    I am pretty sure that the accountants at Tesla would far prefer to sell a fully-loaded M≡ over a base MS. The margin on those add-ons has to be huge compared to the base car. If they could they would just keep adding new goodies to the car.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  15. McHoffa

    McHoffa Member

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    No, they are just investing their profits completely in future products and R&D. They COULD stagnate and sit on their profits like many companies like to do. I mean, as successful as the Model S has been, they could just milk that and stick to high end cars and do just fine, but they are looking at a much bigger picture and dumping all of their profits into the Model 3, service centers, superchargers, etc.

    The Model S on its own IS profitable if you only take into account current costs.
     
  16. weak_pig

    weak_pig Member

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    speaking of cutting edge, I have always wondered if it's possible to project the roads onto your A-pillars as well as a portion of your dashboard (the side passenger side), so that you will have one panoramic view of the road from your cockpit.

    It would come in handy when turning in a cross-junction as sometimes the pesky A pillars may hide a pedestrian who is crossing the road.
     
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  17. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Member

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    @weak_pig I'd rather have A pillars that are barely visible or made from an open lattice structure so I can see through them.
     
  18. TravelSD80

    TravelSD80 Member

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    But do remember even though the margin on options may be quite high, the resale value of options is quite low. So a fully optioned car takes a much bigger depreciation hit than something closer to a base model.
     
  19. CButterK

    CButterK Member

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    So... I considered purchasing the Model S back in 2013, but held off as it seemed a little too big for my taste(I like compact sport sedans), so I reserved the Model 3 on 3/31 to replace one of my "Euro ICE sport sedan" lol. Question: Is it most everyone's opinion that the highest performance version of the Tesla M3 will be equal to/or better than the BMW M3 sedan(F80 2016) from a "Track" performance perspective?
     
  20. amb3rgris

    amb3rgris Member

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    The world of corporate accounting is a pretty funny one, indeed. There's always room for tweaking and tricks, but I think you can usually get a good idea of what's generally going on from a public company's SEC filings.

    I think the key point from RobStark's comment is "net" vs. "gross" profits.
    I assume you do understand that Tesla has reported a gross profit for at least the last 3 years. I have no idea what Tesla counts towards cost of revenue, but I assume there are legal and practical limits to how this is done in the auto sector.
    Of course, the key is "net" profits, where general&admin and r&d costs are taken out. This shows that they are definitely not "net" profitable. But I think that is expected given the huge amounts of money they are spending on building new sales/service facilities, Gigafactory construction, car development, and hiring 1,000's of people.
     

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