Will Model 3 get a heat pump for cabin heating?

[UngaBunga1989]

So the Kia beats a Ferrari too in terms of efficiency...which would you rather drive? If you choose the Kia (over the Model 3), we are all free to buy one. Driving a car (even an EV) is most definitely NOT all just about efficiency...just look at that thing (the Kia that is)! The overall driving experience, design, looks and features of the Model 3 set it way, way apart from the Kia...at least IMHO.

 

[SageBrush]

As usual, interesting data from Bjorn. However, I would not be so quick to ascribe all of the difference to the HVAC since the cars are awake for this test. If AP was running in the Tesla that would explain much of the difference.

 

[insaneoctane]

As usual, interesting data from Bjorn. However, I would not be so quick to ascribe all of the difference to the HVAC since the cars are awake for this test. If AP was running in the Tesla that would explain much of the difference.

If HW2 was running (consumes 57W) for 9 hours that would only waste .5kW (57W/1000*9) and HW3 (72W) only 0.65kW (72W/1000*9). Either way that is in the noise of the overall energy usage for this test...

 

[insaneoctane]

So the Kia beats a Ferrari too in terms of efficiency...which would you rather drive? If you choose the Kia (over the Model 3), we are all free to buy one. Driving a car (even an EV) is most definitely NOT all just about efficiency...just look at that thing (the Kia that is)! The overall driving experience, design, looks and features of the Model 3 set it way, way apart from the Kia...at least IMHO.

True, but this is a cop-out IMO. Tesla doesn't need to give up on being efficient just because their car looks and drives great....I want Tesla to deliver the total smackdown whenever possible (ICE OR EV!)

 

[SageBrush]

If HW2 was running (consumes 57W) for 9 hours that would only waste .5kW (57W/1000*9) and HW3 (72W) only 0.65kW (72W/1000*9). Either way that is in the noise of the overall energy usage for this test...

Where are these numbers from ? I have a vague recollection from the recent 'AP day' that Elon put on that the AP is much more.

 

[TomB985]

You also have to consider how moderate the temperatures were for this test. 53°F isn’t that cold, and heat pumps efficiency declines exterior temperature decreases. So this was the perfect situation for the Soul to beat the model three, any bets on how it would do if it was 10° below zero?

I’m not saying that I wouldn’t prefer a heat pump, but every design has trade-offs. Adding complexity would also increase cost and provide more things they can break.

 

[mswlogo]

Keep in mind they are somewhat comparing apples and oranges.

The Model 3 is an AWD (Capable) car that can do 325 miles (Capable in 2WD configuration).

If Telsa focused on optimizing for 243 mile range 2WD only it wouldn't be the Model 3 as we know it.
The focused on AWD and 325 design. It's a little unfair to compare a Model 3 stripped down (I assume it's an SR being compared).

I think Tesla targeted things right. And if they did target 243 (max) and 2WD (max) they would not have sold nearly as many.

 

[StellarRat]

Heat pumps are great until the temperature gets below about 30 degrees F. I have one in my house and it's saved a ton of money for me, BUT there have been a few days each winter when it's really struggling to keep the house warm. There is a point where they start to consume a huge amount of power to get even a little bit of heat out. Most home heat pumps also have resistance heat coils in them to deal with low temperatures. When those have to kick in they are power hogs.

 

[insaneoctane]

Where are these numbers from ? I have a vague recollection from the recent 'AP day' that Elon put on that the AP is much more.

Actually my numbers are from autonomous driving event. The HW3 requirement was <100W and they said they beat it. The referenced chart from that event shows it pretty clearly

 

[David99]

We are not talking about KIA vs Model 3, we are not talking about the rare extreme cold, we are not talking about AWD vs FWD, or any of these things. The question is a heat pump in a Model 3. It would make the car more efficient in a large number of cases. That's all.

 

[Daniel in SD]

It's ridiculous that the EPA test doesn't include heating energy in MPGe. They need to overhaul their test regime to accurately measure EV efficiency.

 

[willow_hiller]

It's ridiculous that the EPA test doesn't include heating energy in MPGe. They need to overhaul their test regime to accurately measure EV efficiency.

It feels like we're right now at a turning point in how the public perceives EV efficiency. There are now enough models of EVs for people to start to pay attention to the efficiency differences.

 

[jedi2b]

KIA and Hyundai decided to have the heat pump as an optional component depending on the market. They include it on the base models for Canada, for example, but not in the States.

I expect Tesla to go the same way eventually, as the car becomes less California centric

Right now M3 owners on north-north america and northern Europe get the double whammy from Tesla:
-no heat pump
-no battery heater

It's common knowledge in these parts that, if buying a TM3 you should consider 50% range loss during the winter when choosing the car battery size. So people has to deal with this interesting dilemma when buying:

-get the SR+ model for 50k CAD after incentives (and accept a winter range of 386/2 km)
-get the LR model for 78k CAD after incentives

for prospective Canadian customers, this is pretty terrible. 50% markup to not have to deal with range loss because Tesla decided not not add a heat pump and battery heater as an option is an awful choice.

 

[Reeler]

Now that the Model Y has a heat pump, I wonder if the Model 3 will get an upgrade. I doubt it. The Model S is lacking so many upgrades that later models received, it is really sad. No wonder they aren't selling with very little improvement over 9 years in the market.

 

[Saghost]

Now that the Model Y has a heat pump, I wonder if the Model 3 will get an upgrade. I doubt it. The Model S is lacking so many upgrades that later models received, it is really sad. No wonder they aren't selling with very little improvement over 9 years in the market.

Huh? The first Model S was delivered in June of 2012 - less than 8 years ago.

I don’t think there’s a single part that’s still the same except for the body shell.

And the new cars are much faster, more efficient, longer ranged, better riding/handling, more comfortable, with far better infotainment and automation.

 

[vjason]

Below about 25F home heat pumps don’t work well, which is why most heat pumps used in colder climates have resistance heating secondaries as a backup.
It’s also why heat pumps are far less common in colder climates, and gas furnaces for heat are a more efficient choice.
I’d definitely be interested in learning how the Y is setup (All heat pump? Heat pump with resistant backup?), and how it does in colder climates.

 

[Candleflame]

Same here. The coldest I have experienced with it in the UK was minus 5 Celcius. Heating worked great.

The UK is in a sweet spot because it is so warm by european standards that you can get away just using the seat heaters. Once you drop below 3 degrees it really becomes frickin cold.

 

[MacGreiner]

They should offer HP and steering wheel warmer as part of a cold package.

 

[run-the-joules]

Supposedly the Y has a heat pump and no resistance heater for when it's actually cold out, which doesn't sound awesome

 

[Saghost]

Below about 25F home heat pumps don’t work well, which is why most heat pumps used in colder climates have resistance heating secondaries as a backup.
It’s also why heat pumps are far less common in colder climates, and gas furnaces for heat are a more efficient choice.
I’d definitely be interested in learning how the Y is setup (All heat pump? Heat pump with resistant backup?), and how it does in colder climates.

It's not just that. Most of the time when you're heating in a car, you also need to be defrosting - getting the humidity out of the air, from either the environment or the human breathing in the car to avoid getting fogging or ice all over the windows.

Cars have been using the AC to do this since AC became common on cars - it's normal for the defrost mode to run both the heat and the AC to get the humidity out.

But a single heat pump can't be both hot and cold, and I haven't seen anyone equipping cars with dual AC systems yet. So in any circumstance where humidity is a factor, you can't benefit from the heat pump...