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Will Tesla ever do LIDAR?

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yes, and cheap lidar will get to the precision of reading facial expressions, for instance microsoft kinect azure A closer look at Microsoft’s new Kinect sensor

'now the pixels are just 3.5 by 3.5 microns each. That's larger than the pixels in a smartphone camera, which are usually 1 to 2 microns square,'

its still is lidar, it uses a pulse of laser, but as far as I know, even vision systems rely on headlights at night.
 
It is possible that Tesla will be able to avoid using Lidar though, by adding multiple high resolution radars, high res cameras and possibly thermal imaging .

I think Tesla will be able to do it how they say they will do it - with the current sensor suite. There's no need for multiple high-resolution radars or thermal imaging. Imagine if humans were not allowed to drive unless they used multiple high res radars with thermal imaging back-up. I'm actually laughing out loud at the thought of it! :rolleyes:

You sound like one of those people for whom getting out of bed is too dangerous without first checking the news for potential dangers, consulting your carbon monoxide detector and donning a helmet! Even then, it would be safer to simply stay in bed. Of course, a meteorite might crash through your roof and kill you. Maybe it's time to put an early warning meteorite detector on your roof. You can't be too safe, ya know? ;)
 
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I think Tesla will be able to do it how they say they will do it - with the current sensor suite. There's no need for multiple high-resolution radars or thermal imaging. Imagine if humans were not allowed to drive unless they used multiple high res radars with thermal imaging back-up. I'm actually laughing out loud at the thought of it! :rolleyes:

You sound like one of those people for whom getting out of bed is too dangerous without first checking the news for potential dangers, consulting your carbon monoxide detector and donning a helmet! Even then, it would be safer to simply stay in bed. Of course, a meteorite might crash through your roof and kill you. Maybe it's time to put an early warning meteorite detector on your roof. You can't be too safe, ya know? ;)
Strange that Tesla hasn't dumped the ultrasonics and radar, humans don't need those to drive so it seems like they're a waste of money.
 
Strange that Tesla hasn't dumped the ultrasonics and radar, humans don't need those to drive so it seems like they're a waste of money.
Don't almost all new cars include ultrasonics, at least in the rear? The ultrasonic sensors seem very useful to humans completely manually driving the vehicle.

Nov 1, 2018 Elon tweet: "Long-term, the car will work purely on vision, with radar just a plus, but maybe worth adding a radar heater anyway"

This thread (I think) has mentioned redundancy a bunch, It seems to me that lidar and cameras could easily have very correlated failures. Snow or ice or mud that sticks to one could easily stick to both of them. If that is a problem, adding heaters and/or wipers might make more sense than another sensor.
 
Don't almost all new cars include ultrasonics, at least in the rear? The ultrasonic sensors seem very useful to humans completely manually driving the vehicle.

Nov 1, 2018 Elon tweet: "Long-term, the car will work purely on vision, with radar just a plus, but maybe worth adding a radar heater anyway"

This thread (I think) has mentioned redundancy a bunch, It seems to me that lidar and cameras could easily have very correlated failures. Snow or ice or mud that sticks to one could easily stick to both of them. If that is a problem, adding heaters and/or wipers might make more sense than another sensor.
The front cameras already have wipers and a heater. When people talk about lidar adding redundancy they’re talking about it sensing objects that can be missed by the cameras/NN (fire trucks, gore points, the sides of semi trucks, pedestrians, cyclists, etc. )
 
Strange that Tesla hasn't dumped the ultrasonics and radar, humans don't need those to drive so it seems like they're a waste of money.

There's a difference between saying "Tesla must use LIDAR to achieve FSD" and "Tesla cannot use any technology humans don't use."

Tesla will use all the technologies they think will allow them to achieve FSD in the shortest amount of time. And they have made it clear they are not going to chase LIDAR down the rabbit hole.
 
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The front cameras already have wipers and a heater. When people talk about lidar adding redundancy they’re talking about it sensing objects that can be missed by the cameras/NN (fire trucks, gore points, the sides of semi trucks, pedestrians, cyclists, etc. )

That's why humans are not allowed to drive solo. Because safety demands redundancy! And humans make mistakes often and regularly.
 
That's why humans are not allowed to drive solo. Because safety demands redundancy! And humans make mistakes often and regularly.

There is a reason we put age, training and health limitations on human driving though.

The question here is simply: What are the limitations put on autonomous driving?

We are exploring different views on this but really nobody knows yet.

For example humans do have built-in redundancy against blocked vision far higher than the 90 degree vision (single B pillar camera) in the Tesla suite. Even humans with one eye can move their head, clear or open a window and step out of the car to avoid or removed blocked vision. Tesla’s suite has only a heater in comparison. And they have a superior brain, the human brain.

The question is not will redundancy be needed. It obviously is and even Tesla has some. The question is what kind of redundancy and technology will be sufficient for autonomous driving — and further what is best for that task.

Tesla is different from the rest of the industry in that they have made a very clear bet on what this answer is — and is not. They are shipping and selling a suite they say is Level 5 capable hardware without geofences, and they have voiced their opposition to one technology in particular (Lidar).

As far as I can see everyone else still says we don’t know what the final technology requirement will be. Even Waymo responded in that kind. I would not be surprised if Tesla too ends up changing and expanding their suite down the road.
 
There is a reason we put age, training and health limitations on human driving though.

Yes, that's why 85-year-old cardiac patients with cataracts are never allowed to drive without a redundant driver sitting right next to them.;)

It's also why young drivers are not allowed on highways with speed limits above 45 mph until they turn 18, have passed a 40-hour driving instruction school and are not on any kind of medications (like for allergies or depression). The USA is especially strict about this due to the lack of requirements for a redundant driver. :rolleyes:

And they have a superior brain, the human brain.

The capabilities of a FSD car, ready for widespread deployment, has not yet been demonstrated so it remains to be seen what its capabilities will be. But you sure seem to have a high opinion about the functioning of human brains. I have many years as a motorist under my belt and my observations have not been so kind. In many cases, the most rudimentary machine could do better. I have seen human brains do the most assinine things. I see the hurdle as a very low bar.

The question is not will redundancy be needed. It obviously is and even Tesla has some. The question is what kind of redundancy and technology will be sufficient for autonomous driving — and further what is best for that task.

Agreed. Redundancy is a good thing, to a point. It's possible to take it too far. The bottom line will be demonstrating an overall level of failure (odds of injury/death crashes) that is significantly lower than human drivers achieve. I tend to believe that redundancy won't be regulated directly, the presence or lack of redundancy will be "built-in" to the safety statistics that are used to inform us whether FSD is more or less safe than human drivers.

Tesla is different from the rest of the industry in that they have made a very clear bet on what this answer is — and is not. They are shipping and selling a suite they say is Level 5 capable hardware without geofences, and they have voiced their opposition to one technology in particular (Lidar).

Tesla is not opposed to anyone else using whatever technology gets them to FSD most quickly, but they have made an informed decision that it's more trouble than it's worth and Musk predicted that others development efforts based on LIDAR will abandon the technology, not due to any inherent opposition to the use of LIDAR but for practical/technical reasons.

As far as I can see everyone else still says we don’t know what the final technology requirement will be. Even Waymo responded in that kind. I would not be surprised if Tesla too ends up changing and expanding their suite down the road.

Again, I don't think regulators will require any particular technology, it will be the capabilities of the system that will be regulated and this will be informed by demonstrating the system is safe and effective over millions of miles. If it is not safer than humans with a high level of confidence, it won't be allowed. As FSD systems mature, and there are multiple solutions in use, the systems will need to show they are as safe as other competing systems. In other words, the safest FSD systems will, over time, raise the bar for other FSD systems. Statistics will be used to determine which systems are safe enough to continue to be approved for sale.
 
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@StealthP3D

You misunderstood what I meant about redundancy and limitations. I agree it is about capability in general, not about technology choices in particular. I was simply expressing that even for humans we have limitations and requirements, we don’t let babies drive for example.

Humans don’t need a second human to drive a car, except when they are learning to drive. But humans still have various built-in redundancies or capabitilies such as the ability to clear blocked vision, something that Tesla’s sensor suite lacks to the same extent in all directions — which a sensor suite might solve by adding technological redundacy such a duplicate sensors of some kind.

So the thing is, a computer may need some new kind of technological duplicate or redundancy to achieve something a human does not need a second human for — not simply redundancy for redundancy’s sake, but for capability’s sake. Also we as a society tend to expect more from our machines than from humans, that’s a human rights issue (see: old people driving).

In any case even with humans we have set certain limitations on who can drive. It seems likely some set of limitations will eventually emerge for autonomous vehicles as well and we don’t know if Tesla’s suite will reach those because nobody knows.

@diplomat33 Nissan’s efforts predate Elon’s comments by, well, a lot and as said that’s not their autonomous car effort so it remains an open question there. I didn’t take their comments as ”Lidar is doomed”, they actually said quite the opposite.

But in any case, I’m sure an autonomous car can be implemented without Lidar in particular. My thoughts are about a suifficient sensor mix, not about any single technology type.
 
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Its cheesy but go to 4:15

Unlike nissan's driver assisted aids, nissan's autonoumous drive will have much thought given to vehicle to pedestrian, 2 way information.

Big outward facing screens, funky indicators, etc. Absent those, any nissan system is not their driverless system.
 
Tesla is not opposed to anyone else using whatever technology gets them to FSD most quickly, but they have made an informed decision that it's more trouble than it's worth and Musk predicted that others development efforts based on LIDAR will abandon the technology, not due to any inherent opposition to the use of LIDAR but for practical/technical reasons.

Lidar wasn't an option for Tesla. We will see what happens when Lidar becomes practical for production vehicles and Tesla is still hitting low contrast stationary objects
 
Nissan will NOT use LIDAR on their autonomous vehicles:
Nissan spurns lidar tech, siding with Musk

Looks like more and more are agreeing with Musk.

Wow! One by one the industry is saying that LIDAR is not all that some think it's cracked up to be. The movement away from LIDAR is growing. I feel sorry for those who thought LIDAR was the "secret sauce" of autonomous driving and invested billions in it. The primary beneficiaries have been the hundred or so start-ups working to develop LIDAR to a more useable state. I have no doubt someday it will be a useful tool for autonomous driving but I think it's highly unlikely the first to market will be relying on LIDAR.
 
Wow! One by one the industry is saying that LIDAR is not all that some think it's cracked up to be. The movement away from LIDAR is growing. I feel sorry for those who thought LIDAR was the "secret sauce" of autonomous driving and invested billions in it. The primary beneficiaries have been the hundred or so start-ups working to develop LIDAR to a more useable state. I have no doubt someday it will be a useful tool for autonomous driving but I think it's highly unlikely the first to market will be relying on LIDAR.

Nissan will NOT use LIDAR on their autonomous vehicles:
Nissan spurns lidar tech, siding with Musk

Looks like more and more are agreeing with Musk.

Ignore the desperate click bait journalism and media who desperately want to worship Elon by spinnning comments made about not putting lidar on Level 2 driver assistance (which no one does) to mean Nissan is dropping lidar and is siding with Elon musk that they won't use/don't need Lidar on their Level 4/ Level 5 self driving cars and robot taxis.

fb73d691fbbe8810812f631827a48953be3ad427
 

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. It is nice to see what other companies are advertising for FSD. Nissan definitely has more comprehensive sensors which I really like. But none of it is deployed yet. The graphic is just marketing.

The graphic looks very similar to Tesla's "feature complete" list. And except for the toll gate one, Tesla has everything else done in alpha development NOW. A couple of those features, Tesla has already deployed in NOA. It certainly looks like Tesla will beat Nissan to market with a similar FSD.
 
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Ignore the desperate click bait journalism and media who desperately want to worship Elon by spinnning comments made about not putting lidar on Level 2 driver assistance (which no one does) to mean Nissan is dropping lidar and is siding with Elon musk that they won't use/don't need Lidar on their Level 4/ Level 5 self driving cars and robot taxis.

Yawn..... "Available for real-world use from 2020".

This is vaporware (announced in 2017) to give the impression Nissan was not lagging behind in autonomy. But they published that nice vaporware graphic announcing the impending availability of ProPilot Autonomy before they know what they know now. As of yesterday, they said this about their autonomous driving program (ProPilot):

"At the moment, lidar lacks the capabilities to exceed the capabilities of the latest technology in radar and cameras," Tetsuya Iijima, general manager of advanced technology development for automated driving, told reporters at Nissan's headquarters.

"It would be fantastic if lidar technology was at the level that we could use it in our systems, but it's not."
 
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Done? What is your definition of done? Traffic light detection has a high failure rate for example.

By done, I mean Tesla has the feature implemented and is just working on making it reliable enough for public release.

Well, the high failure rate of traffic light detection is based mostly on a couple videos a couple months ago from a "hacked" software that showed the development mode. I am not sure it is a reliable measurement of what the failure rate is NOW in Tesla's best software. All we really know is that a couple months, the current software in cars had a high failure rate. That doesn't tell us what Tesla has done since then. I think we can assume that Tesla has made progress on it. And of course, traffic light detection is not fully released yet precisely because it is not good enough. But it is a feature that Tesla will most likely release later this year in 2019.