Would you pay $90-100K for a Plaid Model 3?

[Peteski]

The same people who bought the plaid instead of the basic Model S
The same people who bought the M3P instead of the basic AWD

That was kind of my point. People just upgrade for the sake of it. Now that the "basic" S has a 0-60 time of 3.1 sec, there isn't a lot of point in paying a load of extra money for the Plaid and then even more again for the Plaid+ as if 1020 hp wasn't really enough power. Yet at the same time you'll be lucky if the doors and trunk lid fit properly. $90-100k for a Model 3 with nothing but a power upgrade over what is already class leading straight line performance doesn't seem like the right focus. Especially if doing so means fitting in some heavy assed battery at the cost of handling.

 

[Phlier]

Good observations.

However, I cannot think of a better example/definition of pointless excess, than everything that is made by Porsche or any other exotic car manufacturer for that matter. Tesla is really not much different in that regard. Bottom line is.... there is a big demand/market for pointless excess. Sorry to say, but if you own a Model 3 (even the base trim), then you fall into that category of buying something that is a pointless excess. If the goal it to own a good practical EV, then why not just get a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf? Both of these are fine vehicles, very practical, plenty fast and considerably less expensive/excessive than a Tesla.

To me, Tesla does not make “luxury” vehicles (in terms of premium materials and plush interiors). Instead, I view Tesla as making ultra-high performance vehicles with just slightly above average interiors. Even the interior of their most expensive Model S is not that great/luxurious IMO. However, that is OK with me, because I purchased knowing that what I’m really paying for is performance and not “luxury”. To be honest, the interior of my Model 3 is plenty comfortable & luxurious for me. Could it be better? Absolutely. But, it’s not necessary (for me).
The only area where I think Tesla really needs to improve is quality control in their assembly line (better control of panel gaps, missing clips, loose wiring harnesses, etc... and perhaps paint). If Tesla does end up offering a Plaid Model 3, I would expect them to also have a more refined interior as well. However, even if they don’t, I’m OK with that because of the huge gain in acceleration & speed (and probably range) that come with a “Plaid” trim. For those who value luxury over performance, expect/demand a ultra-plush interior when spending $75-100K on a vehicle, or are simply more practical in nature,... then a Plaid Model 3 is probably not for them.

Finally, to answer your question about why anyone would feel the need to get the Plaid+ S over the standard Plaid S, I think it would be for the huge increase in range (over 520 miles for the Plaid+ versus “just” 390 miles for the standard Plaid).
Of course nothing has been finalized yet, but at least right now, Tesla is showing nearly identical speed & acceleration numbers for the Plaid and Plaid+ S. For 0-60 acceleration, they show “1.99 sec” for the Plaid and “< 1.99 sec” for the Plaid+.
Looks like there will be around 100 hp difference between the Plaid S (1020 hp) and Plaid+ S (1100+ hp). If that holds true, then 100hp should not significantly improve that 1.99 sec 0-60 time. We shall see!!

Funny.... I don't remember writing this. And when did I change my name to GreenHokie?

Seriously, though, that's exactly my opinion as well.

 

[Phlier]

Especially if doing so means fitting in some heavy assed battery at the cost of handling.

There are always compromises to be made, for sure. That is definitely one of them.

Whether or not you agree with people that buy the types of cars we're dreaming about isn't really the point. The point is that people have a wide variety of tastes, preferences, and opinions as to what type of car they want. And as long as there exits a large enough market for those vehicles, it makes sense to produce the product. If you're in the car making business, capture as much of the market as you can, from the ma and pa grocery getters to the track heads.

BMW has recognized this. They make vehicles for a very wide spectrum of "car guys," and have done well by doing so. Tesla could borrow a page or two from BMW's marketing strategy and do the same.

 

[Peteski]

Good observations.

However, I cannot think of a better example/definition of pointless excess, than everything that is made by Porsche or any other exotic car manufacturer for that matter. Tesla is really not much different in that regard. Bottom line is.... there is a big demand/market for pointless excess. Sorry to say, but if you own a Model 3 (even the base trim), then you fall into that category of buying something that is a pointless excess. If the goal it to own a good practical EV, then why not just get a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf? Both of these are fine vehicles, very practical, plenty fast and considerably less expensive/excessive than a Tesla.

To me, Tesla does not make “luxury” vehicles (in terms of premium materials and plush interiors). Instead, I view Tesla as making ultra-high performance vehicles with just slightly above average interiors. Even the interior of their most expensive Model S is not that great/luxurious IMO. However, that is OK with me, because I purchased knowing that what I’m really paying for is performance and not “luxury”. To be honest, the interior of my Model 3 is plenty comfortable & luxurious for me. Could it be better? Absolutely. But, it’s not necessary (for me).
The only area where I think Tesla really needs to improve is quality control in their assembly line (better control of panel gaps, missing clips, loose wiring harnesses, etc... and perhaps paint). If Tesla does end up offering a Plaid Model 3, I would expect them to also have a more refined interior as well. However, even if they don’t, I’m OK with that because of the huge gain in acceleration & speed (and probably range) that come with a “Plaid” trim. For those who value luxury over performance, expect/demand a ultra-plush interior when spending $75-100K on a vehicle, or are simply more practical in nature,... then a Plaid Model 3 is probably not for them.

Finally, to answer your question about why anyone would feel the need to get the Plaid+ S over the standard Plaid S, I think it would be for the huge increase in range (over 520 miles for the Plaid+ versus “just” 390 miles for the standard Plaid).
Of course nothing has been finalized yet, but at least right now, Tesla is showing nearly identical speed & acceleration numbers for the Plaid and Plaid+ S. For 0-60 acceleration, they show “1.99 sec” for the Plaid and “< 1.99 sec” for the Plaid+.
Looks like there will be around 100 hp difference between the Plaid S (1020 hp) and Plaid+ S (1100+ hp). If that holds true, then 100hp should not significantly improve that 1.99 sec 0-60 time. We shall see!!

I don't really disagree with any of this. I think it's just a simple case of diminishing returns when you keep raising the stakes on power and the current Model 3 is a good compromise for me. I don't even need the Performance version on our roads, 450 hp in a car like this is just fine. I really like the minimalist interior too, it looks and feels very nice. Below average build quality is the only real flaw and I do think that costs a lot of potential sales.

I think you would agree that going from a Nissan Leaf to a Model 3 is a huge step up in both performance and luxury that you can easily experience, so while it may well be considered pointless excess, it is still well inside the diminishing returns boundary for most people. But I'm not convinced adding further power to a Performance M3 is really going to add that much to the driving experience. Not even on a track. It really does seem pointless, but I do fully understand why people are motivated to have more and more. Anyway at $90-100k it's not for me in current Model 3 format.

 

[Peteski]

There are always compromises to be made, for sure. That is definitely one of them.

Whether or not you agree with people that buy the types of cars we're dreaming about isn't really the point. The point is that people have a wide variety of tastes, preferences, and opinions as to what type of car they want. And as long as there exits a large enough market for those vehicles, it makes sense to produce the product. If you're in the car making business, capture as much of the market as you can, from the ma and pa grocery getters to the track heads.

BMW has recognized this. They make vehicles for a very wide spectrum of "car guys," and have done well by doing so. Tesla could borrow a page or two from BMW's marketing strategy and do the same.

My impression is that Tesla sales are actually held back mainly because of their reputation for poor build quality and certainly not lack of straight line performance. Solving that major issue and putting them on the same perceived quality level as BMW etc would result in a lot more sales than a Plaid Model 3 ever would. With the Plaid models it looks more like they are addressing a problem that doesn't even exist.

 

[brur]

Funny.... I don't remember writing this. And when did I change my name to GreenHokie?

Seriously, though, that's exactly my opinion as well.

since this a model 3 forum, the results are going to have a bias.
I'd be interested in the new S if for no other reason other than the innovations. New tech.

 

[dinonugget]

Even if the basic $40k Model 3 did 0-60mph in 1.0 second, there will still be a niche group who will pay double for a Performance or Plaid that does 0-60 in 0.7 second.

Such is the primal drive to show who has the biggest reproductive organ, and Tesla definitely caters to this drive!

 

[Knightshade]

My impression is that Tesla sales are actually held back mainly because of their reputation for poor build quality and certainly not lack of straight line performance.

Tesla sales are held back by lack of batteries.

They sell, easily, every car they can build and with demand they build even more.

Until that stops being true it does not make sense to additionally slow down production by adding complexity/configurations- especially if they are configs that require more batteries as a Plaid 3 would.

Solving that major issue and putting them on the same perceived quality level as BMW etc would result in a lot more sales than a Plaid Model 3 ever would. With the Plaid models it looks more like they are addressing a problem that doesn't even exist.

You know Model 3 outsold the BMW 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 7 series combined, right?

Tesla Model 3 outsold BMW 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Series combined | Team-BHP


Again- Tesla can't get "more" sales.

They already sell 100% of their production with demand for more.

Production is limited by batteries.

They are expecting an average of 50% year over year compound annual growth rate in car sales every year through at least 2030 (higher in some, lower in others) and all of it limited by battery supply.

 

[GreenHokie]

I don't really disagree with any of this. I think it's just a simple case of diminishing returns when you keep raising the stakes on power and the current Model 3 is a good compromise for me. I don't even need the Performance version on our roads, 450 hp in a car like this is just fine. I really like the minimalist interior too, it looks and feels very nice. Below average build quality is the only real flaw and I do think that costs a lot of potential sales.

I think you would agree that going from a Nissan Leaf to a Model 3 is a huge step up in both performance and luxury that you can easily experience, so while it may well be considered pointless excess, it is still well inside the diminishing returns boundary for most people. But I'm not convinced adding further power to a Performance M3 is really going to add that much to the driving experience. Not even on a track. It really does seem pointless, but I do fully understand why people are motivated to have more and more. Anyway at $90-100k it's not for me in current Model 3 format.

Well said, my friend. I respect your viewpoints.

Don’t laugh, but my previous vehicle was a 2007 Toyota Prius. I owned and love that thing for about 12 years before I bought the Tesla. Initially, I was going to get a Leaf or Bolt (which were both huge upgrades in performance over the Prius). But then I told myself if I am going to do this (go full EV), then I’m gonna go “all out” and get what I viewed was the best EV out there at the time... a Tesla. When evaluating which trim to get, I went through the same thought process as many... should I get the standard or Performance? I knew I would have buyer’s remorse if I didn’t get the Performance (even though I was not too crazy about the slightly harsher ride associated with the larger 20” wheels). So, I put my deposit down on a Performance. Then, something unexpected happened... My sales advisor told me about an off-menu “Stealth” unicorn trim that was available, with the same motor, acceleration and top end speed as the full Performance trim, but without some of the other hardware upgrades like 20” wheels, larger brakes, rear spoiler, etc...). This particular “Stealth” trim model came with 19” sport wheels (which was the size I really wanted anyway) and was only $2000 more expensive than the standard trim. So, that is the one I ended up buying. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I stumbled upon a goldmine and one of the most desirable & rare variants of the Model 3. Just really dumb luck on my part.

Tesla has completely changed my lifestyle and driving habits (mostly in a positive way). Now that I’ve felt the power & speed, I find myself craving for more!!

 

[Apprunner]

Tesla sales are held back by lack of batteries.

They sell, easily, every car they can build and with demand they build even more.

Until that stops being true it does not make sense to additionally slow down production by adding complexity/configurations- especially if they are configs that require more batteries as a Plaid 3 would.

We probably won't get a faster Model 3 until it switches to the newer 4680 cell. I don't know if we will ever get a Plaid Model 3 though. One can only hope.

 

[Peteski]

Tesla sales are held back by lack of batteries.

They sell, easily, every car they can build and with demand they build even more.

Until that stops being true it does not make sense to additionally slow down production by adding complexity/configurations- especially if they are configs that require more batteries as a Plaid 3 would.

Fair enough. But ultimate demand is still held in check by perceived lack of quality, even though current supply limitation means it is not yet a problem for Tesla.

I’ve had countless conversations with people who really like the idea of a high performance, long range EV but won’t consider buying a Tesla purely on grounds of perceived quality. It is this more than anything else that gives the likes of VW a real chance to compete.

 

[Peteski]

Well said, my friend. I respect your viewpoints.

Don’t laugh, but my previous vehicle was a 2007 Toyota Prius. I owned and love that thing for about 12 years before I bought the Tesla. Initially, I was going to get a Leaf or Bolt (which were both huge upgrades in performance over the Prius). But then I told myself if I am going to do this (go full EV), then I’m gonna go “all out” and get what I viewed was the best EV out there at the time... a Tesla. When evaluating which trim to get, I went through the same thought process as many... should I get the standard or Performance? I knew I would have buyer’s remorse if I didn’t get the Performance (even though I was not too crazy about the slightly harsher ride associated with the larger 20” wheels). So, I put my deposit down on a Performance. Then, something unexpected happened... My sales advisor told me about an off-menu “Stealth” unicorn trim that was available, with the same motor, acceleration and top end speed as the full Performance trim, but without some of the other hardware upgrades like 20” wheels, larger brakes, rear spoiler, etc...). This particular “Stealth” trim model came with 19” sport wheels (which was the size I really wanted anyway) and was only $2000 more expensive than the standard trim. So, that is the one I ended up buying. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I stumbled upon a goldmine and one of the most desirable & rare variants of the Model 3. Just really dumb luck on my part.

Tesla has completely changed my lifestyle and driving habits (mostly in a positive way). Now that I’ve felt the power & speed, I find myself craving for more!!

The stealth P was a great option for sure. Funnily enough I had my original deposit on one too when they first came to the UK. I really didn’t want the 20” wheels or lowered suspension (both are worse on our roads), but I did crave the power. In the end I cancelled my order because we didn’t need the car at that moment. Of course when I came to order again before Christmas the stealth P was not an option anymore. So I went for the LR AWD, which has proven to be seriously quick in its own right. I thought briefly about adding the acceleration boost option, but I’m very rarely flooring it from a standstill where the bulk of the gain comes.

 

[Knightshade]

Fair enough. But ultimate demand is still held in check by perceived lack of quality, even though current supply limitation means it is not yet a problem for Tesla.

I’ve had countless conversations with people who really like the idea of a high performance, long range EV but won’t consider buying a Tesla purely on grounds of perceived quality. It is this more than anything else that gives the likes of VW a real chance to compete.

VW isn't competing against Tesla- they're competing against their own ICE vehicles.

Demand for EVs in general is far higher than supply, and will remain so for many years going forward, across the entire industry.

That's why Tesla is able to reasonably project 50% year over year sales growth out to at least 2030 (and that would be higher still if they had more batteries)

That wouldn't be possible if there was some barrier to demand they're anywhere near.

 

[Phlier]

...and all of it limited by battery supply.

Sorry to be going off topic, but the quoted statement is exactly why I giggle at all of the new "Tesla Killers" the legacy automobile manufacturers are bringing to market. Until one of those legacy makers builds their own battery factory, they will be constrained by battery supply so badly that they simply won't be able to mass produce any of these Tesla Killers; they'll remain halo cars in an attempt to show the public that they're actually doing something.

As soon as a legacy manufacturer breaks ground on a new battery factory, I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, Tesla will remain in the enviable position of being the only car builder capable of producing BEV's on a mass market scale.

 

[Let's Drive]

S Plaid+ is a great example of pointless excess in our world of status symbols. Who in their right mind would not find the standard Plaid version quick enough and feel the need to “upgrade” to the plus? I do wish Tesla would focus a bit more on getting basic stuff sorted first rather than chasing headline straight line performance just for the sake of it.

While I understand your sentiments, Tesla chasing maximum performance creates a halo-effect for the brand, which earns it desirability. Tesla could've settled with making the next-era Prius, but aside from reaching the more practical demographic, it would fail to appeal to the performance enthusiasts or anyone else who drives for "fun". The same is true for the robust infotainment systems in the car...together, they all create an aura of desirability for the brand, which places it "above" other brands in terms of outright technology- both in software and hardware. It's the differentiator and wakeup call to the any brand in the industry.

So do they need a Plaid+? Probably not outright, but that's only because Tesla has previously established itself and made impressions in high performance. But following the logic, there's a good case to be made, that the performance aspects of the Tesla brand are the direct reason we even see so many Porsche or other fast-car comparisons, which raises the brand cachet in a positive way...and so they should continue with the underlying formula which got them here. From performance to range, the Plaid+ will eclipse most any other production car, for the time being, which will only lend to more discussion/desirability of Tesla.

 

[GreenHokie]

While I understand your sentiments, Tesla chasing maximum performance creates a halo-effect for the brand, which earns it desirability. Tesla could've settled with making the next-era Prius, but aside from reaching the more practical demographic, it would fail to appeal to the performance enthusiasts or anyone else who drives for "fun". The same is true for the robust infotainment systems in the car...together, they all create an aura of desirability for the brand, which places it "above" other brands in terms of outright technology- both in software and hardware. It's the differentiator and wakeup call to the any brand in the industry.

So do they need a Plaid+? Probably not outright, but that's only because Tesla has previously established itself and made impressions in high performance. But following the logic, there's a good case to be made, that the performance aspects of the Tesla brand are the direct reason we even see so many Porsche or other fast-car comparisons, which raises the brand cachet in a positive way...and so they should continue with the underlying formula which got them here. From performance to range, the Plaid+ will eclipse most any other production car, for the time being, which will only lend to more discussion/desirability of Tesla.

So, in other words.... You’re all in for a Plaid Model 3, correct?

 

[Let's Drive]

So, in other words.... You’re all in for a Plaid Model 3, correct?

Yep, #47.

 

[Phlier]

but a major additional option for the Model 3 and Y would be to get magnetically adjustable suspension

Fixed this for you.

 

[Peteski]

VW isn't competing against Tesla- they're competing against their own ICE vehicles.

Demand for EVs in general is far higher than supply, and will remain so for many years going forward, across the entire industry.

That's why Tesla is able to reasonably project 50% year over year sales growth out to at least 2030 (and that would be higher still if they had more batteries)

That wouldn't be possible if there was some barrier to demand they're anywhere near.

I’m not totally convinced about that argument. Ultimately they are competing against both in the short/medium term. You only need to quickly scan other EV forums to realise it. Clearly there is still excess EV demand overall, but that will inevitably fade in the long term as EVs become mainstream.

 

[Knightshade]

I’m not totally convinced about that argument. Ultimately they are competing against both in the short/medium term. You only need to quickly scan other EV forums to realise it. Clearly there is still excess EV demand overall, but that will inevitably fade in the long term as EVs become mainstream.

The most optimistic expert numbers have EVs at 30-50% of the market by 2030.

Constrained entirely by supply, not demand.

So it appears any good EV will sell as many as the maker can build for at least another decade or more.

ICE will continue to be the competition for legacies own EVs, because when you go to a VW dealer- that's the choice you're faced with.

Currently, the dealers are heavily pushing their customers toward the ICE vehicle they're selling- because there's more profit for them both in initial sale, and future maintenance.

In a recent secret shopper type test they went to 25 VW dealers. 24 of them did not recommend an EV, even one from VW.

That'll continue to be an albatross around legacies neck for some time- one Tesla does not have to deal with.