Wow, see Trumps Climate and Energy Policy just put up on the White House Site

[AudubonB]

Hockeythug:
There is nothing "leftist" about a carbon tax. There is nothing redistributionistic about it. You're spouting utter nonsense.

I permit immense leeway in this forum with respect to letting people voice their opinions. When someone comes right out and puts his or her foot in mouth, however, I do not let it pass unchallenged.

Internalizing Externalities is the right and proper way to view a carbon tax. Not so acting is, in fact, the pinnacle example of privatizing gains and socializing costs. And that, Hockeythug, is that from which a true conservative would shrink, every time.

 

[deonb]

You must have really good genes if your grandparents are thousands of years old. Mine were borne into a world where all these things existed, and had existed, for countless generations, and even before the Bible, which contains every thing you mention

Boy, did you just get unlucky...

I was born in South Africa. My grandfather was a National Party (NP) activist. He led anti-VP rallies (opposition liberal(-ish) party at the time), even had fist-fights with them at debates. He had a nickname in his district - "White Lion". He was proud that on election day he went around farms and gathered up and drove more NP supporters to the poles than the NP won his district by. Of course, one district alone didn't cause the NP to win - there were other districts, but there were also other grandfathers.

The NP did end up winning that election, and 2 years later the Group Areas Act was enacted. Suddenly millions of people were no longer allowed to live in the place where they grew up. Apartheid was born.

This wasn't big ecological or natural forces that caused it. It was a few dozen guys in a room. And one of them was my grandfather.


I'll take global warming over guys in a room.

 

[ohmman]

I'll take global warming over guys in a room.

Remember that those aren't your only options. One is that you don't have to take either.

(Fascinating story, btw, and thank you for sharing.)

 

[Canuck]

Boy, did you just get unlucky...
I was born in South Africa. My grandfather was...

I didn't get "unlucky" at all. You don't even remember what you wrote:

Our grandparents left us such a messy world with religion, racism, sexism and genocide

You told us what our grandparents left us with. You did not confine it to your grandparents. My grandparents did not leave me with racism. But even if we accept your story, your entire argument is based on the false premise that we can't combat both racism and global warming.

 

[Bangor Bob]

Fine with me. Climate change never was in the legislation that created the EPA. It was one of Obama's creative interpretations of the laws, stretching them beyond their intent.

That's some revisionist history. It wasn't Obama's "creative interpretation", it was a 5-4 decision of the Roberts Supreme Court prior to Obama's election.

The GW Bush EPA said it didn't have authority to regulate GHG. Massachusetts, 11 other states and several cities brought suit. The case was Massachusetts vs. The EPA, and the finding was that greenhouse gasses must be regulated as a pollutant under the Clean Air Act. It took until Obama's 2nd term for those regulations to get published, and the court battles over them have raged ever since. Trump can try to slow-walk enforcement, but enforcement must happen (or the Clean Air Act would have to be amended).

Massachusetts v. Environmental Protection Agency - Wikipedia

Regulation of greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act - Wikipedia

 

[hockeythug]

I permit immense leeway in this forum with respect to letting people voice their opinions. When someone comes right out and puts his or her foot in mouth, however, I do not let it pass unchallenged

Oh, thanks for your permission. Do you feel important?

What was prop 732 in Washington going to do ? Oh, just tax businesses and then "Provide a tax credit of up to $1,500 a year for 460,000 low-income households."

 

[nwdiver]

What was prop 732 in Washington going to do ? Oh, just tax businesses and then "Provide a tax credit of up to $1,500 a year for 460,000 low-income households."

Everyone pays in proportion to how foolish their energy consumption is. Low income households would receive a credit since they would be disproportionaly effected but they still pay more for more foolish choices. And everyone can still avoid the tax by not being an idiot.

The end goal is still the same. Internalize the external cost of carbon.

 

[hockeythug]

Everyone pays in proportion to how foolish their energy consumption is. Low income households would receive a credit since they would be disproportionaly effected but they still pay more for more foolish choices. And everyone can still avoid the tax by not being an idiot.

The end goal is still the same. Internalize the external cost of carbon.

So low income households are idiots and foolish for not being able to afford expensive solar systems? Got it.

 

[nwdiver]

So low income households are idiots and foolish for not being able to afford expensive solar systems? Got it.

That's why they get the credit.... but if they drive a ferd-f-teen-fifty instead of a Versa.... yes.

And solar is now cheaper than grid power in most of the US.

 

[hockeythug]

That's why they get the credit.... but if they drive a ferd-f-teen-fifty instead of a Versa.... yes.

And solar is now cheaper than grid power in most of the US.

Haha. Unbelievable.

 

[nwdiver]

Haha. Unbelievable.

BOS cost of solar is now $0.80/w before the tax credit. Before the tax credit that's ~$0.05/kWh over 10 years... let alone the ~40+ year life of the system.

There are no excuses. It's time to grow up and stop leaching off the future.

Only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist.

 

[McMuggets]

From Canada here... why is everyone freaking out about that new "energy action plan"? From my read it makes a lot of sense, and I wasn't a big fan of the orange fellow myself. It means that America is sick of importing oil from the OPEC nations and wants to use looser regulations in order to obtain energy independence, which makes sense as a country to try and achieve. He's listing an all-of-the-above approach, and did not necessarily slam renewables. It makes sense that fossil fuels for now will play a huge role in getting to energy independence, but in places like the Nevada desert where renewables (made in America such as Tesla's solar panels/solar tiles) and batteries make sense I do not see Trump going out of his way to kill them. It's more of a "free for all let the market decide" approach.

For what it's worth, we might see a nice plus for Tesla as cheap Chinese solar panels and products are taxed, thus making Tesla panels and tiles far more attractive to purchase for the American consumer. If it's cheaper in one place to use solar vs. coal or nat gas, then use solar. Or wind where it's best... etc. Use the best energy source available at the most appropriate location, and get rid of your dependence on foreign oil. Uh oh, that might mean Canadian oil too.

 

[nwdiver]

It means that America is sick of importing oil from the OPEC nations and wants to use looser regulations in order to obtain energy independence, which makes sense as a country to try and achieve. He's listing an all-of-the-above approach, and did not necessarily slam renewables. It makes sense that fossil fuels for now will play a huge role in getting to energy independence, but in places like the Nevada desert where renewables (made in America such as Tesla's solar panels/solar tiles) and batteries make sense I do not see Trump going out of his way to kill them. It's more of a "free for all let the market decide" approach.

For what it's worth, we might see a nice plus for Tesla as cheap Chinese solar panels and products are taxed, thus making Tesla panels and tiles far more attractive to purchase for the American consumer. If it's cheaper in one place to use solar vs. coal or nat gas, then use solar. Or wind where it's best... etc. Use the best energy source available at the most appropriate location, and get rid of your dependence on foreign oil. Uh oh, that might mean Canadian oil too.

More of what we're addicted to is not the answer to our addiction.

Either we're serious about moving away from fools fuel or we're not. Trump obviously could not care less.....

 

[bkp_duke]

Most of the ocean acidification was due to CO2 not SO2. Acid rain is more a threat to terrestrial life. It's the MASSIVE amounts of CO2 getting absorbed from the air that's the issue for oceans.

Incorrect. Trained chemist here, and as the oceans warm they RELEASE more CO2, instead of absorb it. It's actually a double wammy for the atmosphere.

Simple example - think what happens when you leave a bottle of carbonated pop sitting out in the sun - more of the CO2 is released from the liquid and pressure increases (and the pop tastes "flat" because of reduced carbonic acid).


You WANT the oceans absorbing the CO2, otherwise 400 PPM will only be the first step.

 

[bkp_duke]

That's why they get the credit.... but if they drive a ferd-f-teen-fifty instead of a Versa.... yes.

And solar is now cheaper than grid power in most of the US.

Incredibly short-sighted comment. Many of those "low-income" individuals have lower paying jobs like construction, and need those F150s and the like to properly perform their jobs.

Deployment costs for grid-level solar are cheaper, yes, but putting solar panels on one's roof is still an expensive proposition. One certainly still out of possibility for most low-income households, even the few of those that manage to scrap and buy their own house.

 

[deonb]

Remember that those aren't your only options. One is that you don't have to take either.

The point of the story wasn't entirely about racism, but rather how a few guys can get together and destroy people's lives a whole lot more efficiently than global warming ever could. If all that my grandkids have to deal with is global warming, I'd call that a win for our generation.


When I was idealistic teenager I thought that the Internet was going to change everything. People were making dumb decisions back then, but surely that's only because they didn't have access to all the information. In my mind all people were rational, and irrational decisions were just because of wrong input. GIGO and all.

So all we needed to do to fix this, was to make sure people get access to all the information! So I spent the first part of my career doing just that. I became a tech lead for the first company that provided uncensored Satellite-based internet to Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman & Bahrain. Somewhat unsurprisingly 95% of the traffic on our transponder was used for porn, but there was like 1% of traffic going over to news sites etc.

I thought, finally, change is here! People now have access to all the right information, and as such we will be able to make better collective decisions! Oh, boy, was I wrong.

Humanity seems pretty set on a path to screw ourselves. With or without global warming.

 

[nwdiver]

Incorrect. Trained chemist here, and as the oceans warm they RELEASE more CO2, instead of absorb it. It's actually a double wammy for the atmosphere.

You WANT the oceans absorbing the CO2, otherwise 400 PPM will only be the first step.

Which is it? Yes. Warm water holds less gas under static conditions... but we're increasing the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere which is why even as the oceans warm they are absorb more CO2 increasing the acidity. I'm betting that NOAA has a trained chemist or two also.

Many of those "low-income" individuals have lower paying jobs like construction, and need those F150s and the like to properly perform their jobs.

LOL #Spicerfacts

Suuuure... where I work no one needs a truck for their job... yet ~80% of the people commute in a ~20mpg truck... it's pathetic.

 

[tomas]

Incredibly short-sighted comment. Many of those "low-income" individuals have lower paying jobs like construction, and need those F150s and the like to properly perform their jobs.

Deployment costs for grid-level solar are cheaper, yes, but putting solar panels on one's roof is still an expensive proposition. One certainly still out of possibility for most low-income households, even the few of those that manage to scrap and buy their own house.

Pure and simple lack of facts and solar PR out there... not just for low income but for everybody. And it is totally understandable, because the cost of solar has changed so radically over past 10 years. Gone from 20 to sometimes as low as 5 year payback.

Truth is that there are many companies ( like solar city ) willing to make the up front capital investment for solar buyers, charge them competitive rates for a decade, then turn over "free" energy after that. For those who cannot afford the up front capital cost.

There is also a pretty strong desire among many low to middle income families to be as independent as possible, and solar fits that.

Problem is awareness. Builders, architects, mortgage lenders, and real estate agents are the trusted participants in housing decisions. Few of them, particularly in lower income areas, know the current technology or economics.

Personally, I find that the [highly fragmented] solar industry has done a poor job of communicating and marketing. if you ask Joe bagadonutz what solar company he is aware of, he'd likely say "Solyndra". Would like to help change that. Suggestions?

 

[Topher]

acid rain, ebola virus, Zika, bird flu etc.............. all causing mass hysteria. The world will end blah,blah,blah.

The trouble is that the scientists were mostly right. Acid rain exists. Ebola virus exists. Zika exists. bird flu exists. The mass hysteria was not part of what the scientists said, but rather what the media, and the deniers said. So you are free to disregard the hysteria of the media, but not to dismiss the findings of scientists (taken with the same degree of caution that they themselves use).

Thank you kindly.

 

[Electroman]

Thank you kindly