I hear you Jason. Really appreciate the passion. Can you call me sometime to discuss all this for the benefit of my members in the BMS_U029 Facebook group you're part of? I need to be providing them safe, up front advise. Sent you PM on March 21st with my number. Thx.Had to come back to this... man, not going to lie: Reading those "options" actually made me angry and I couldn't let it go.
There's so many places taking complete advantage of people in the EV space it seems and it's super irritating to me. It's especially bad when I end up cleaning up after them, too. I've serviced at least a dozen cars now that have had completely botched service done at places claiming to be able to do cheap repairs on battery packs. I won't generally name such places, but if they're saying they can replace a module, cut out a cell, or some other butcher job on a pack as a "repair", then they're probably in that group.
I'm fully aware that not everyone is able to get all of the information they need to understand this, and I never blame or shame victims of scammers for being taken advantage of. But it's especially annoying when someone I've pretty directly given advice to pointing out that such "repairs" a) do not work, and b) show that the people offering them are unqualified to work on these things.... and they do it anyway.... and then X months later come back because they still need real service.
I've actually had someone pretty much cuss me out the other day over this. I explicitly told them the alternative non-option they were looking into was guaranteed to damage their car and that I would not be able to help them for a reasonable price later on if they went that route. I didn't hear anything for something like 7 months. Then they call in, pretending like no one at 057 had spoken with them, gives their VIN, our notes come up clearly suggesting they went with a pack-butcher "repair" sometime last summer. We explain that such a core pack isn't acceptable for any of our replacement or upgrade services, they initially lie and say they never did anything of the sort and have been waiting to get it fixed (despite saying moment earlier that it just happened). I eventually personally get on the phone, explain the situation, clearly recognize and recall them from previously, and they eventually admit that they went another route and paid some other company $6000 to basically just break their pack. That company won't do jack for them now, and now he wants me to honor an estimate range given 7 months ago before their core pack was made useless... Sorry, that's not how it works.
Oh, and I find out later in the conversation that Tesla won't accept their core either, due to "modifications", and wanted a $20,000 core charge on top of the normal replacement costs. Ouch.
Anyway, I wish there was something I could do to get through to every single Tesla owner that there is no cheap repair for these issues in 99% of these cases. The BMS is very good at its job, and if it says there's an issue then there's probably an issue. Resetting things helps nothing, and there's no software fix for any of these problems despite claims to the contrary.
Your options are: replace the pack.
That's pretty much it. (I've got one other potential option in the works that might work out in maybe 30% of cases to save someone a few bucks getting their car back on the road, but it's still expensive, not the best option for most, and not something anyone else is pulling off, frankly.)
Option 2 was never a fix, and has been proven over and over that it can't be done. It at best kicks the problem down the road a few months. I guess that's great if you're a con-artist and want the car to seem usable to flip it or something and screw the next owner, but not great if you actually want something fixed. (Yes, I've had a few customers who have had this happen to them, sadly. Free of charge I pulled logs for them showing what was done to the car, and at least one of them is suing the seller of the car now. So don't do this. I'll help the victims of such fraud go after you and I'll do it for free.)
And good Lord, $5850 for "software rebalancing" ... that's got to be the worst scam in this space I've heard to-date. And I've seen a lot of people get screwed over the years by companies claiming all sorts of nonsense. But damn, that just boils my blood.
Seriously, just run away from those "options". I'm not even trying to push my own stuff here, because I don't think it's the best option in your particular case. Just go to Tesla, get the refurb pack, and move on. Either that, or put the car up for auction and cut your losses. Just please don't let some company talk you into giving them money for a non-fix, and probably shouldn't give any money to companies that suggest a non-fix at all.
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057 Technology extended service plan
- Thread starter Stormy7
- Start date
I hear you Jason. Really appreciate the passion. Can you call me sometime to discuss all this for the benefit of my members in the BMS_U029 Facebook group you're part of? I need to be providing them safe, up front advise. Sent you PM on March 21st with my number. Thx.
brainhouston
Active Member
luckily any private used car sale is (n should be) sold "as is". u never gonna win the lawsuit...
its on buyer to do the research n inspection prior to buying.
i don't do it cause of u know Karma n such... but this is not new, lots of ICE scam sellers being doing it forever.
i hate ALL kinds of scammers too but i won't EVER do business with person/company with such attitude (nor advertise it), sorry wk..
fastest way to shut down scammers is to NOT buy their crap n educate buyers, which u been doing on here successfully, so Thank you!
Option #4 is actually perfectly legitimate n good. Would be my #1 option but the prices need to come down more, not worth the risk being so close to official reman.
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
I was recently physically at the EVsRepublic location outside Sacramento. I don't know if they have multiple locations.... BUT I echo Jason's sentiments here about them. They are connected with a boneyard nearby that specializes in Teslas, if you have looked for used parts, you likely have seen their name and they sell a LOT on ebay.
I have no problem with the selling of used parts, especially for non-critical stuff and for anyone that goes in with their eyes open. I spent a LOT with that boneyard (the reason I was there) so this is me too.
But EVsRepublic looked for all the world to see like a used car dealership. With that close relationship to the boneyard, I got a REALLY questionable vibe off them, like some or all of the cars sitting for sale may have had things replaced from the boneyard, and maybe they aren't telling the customer. I don't know this to be sure, but it just gave me sketchy vibes.
I've also physically been to Jason's shop - and @wk057 - MUCH respect to any businessman who will answer questions and provide advice that actually steers customer money to someone else (in this thread's case, to Tesla) b/c that takes a LOT of integrity. I haven't yet had the need to get a pack replacement, but if I was to do that and it wasn't coming from Tesla b/c of economics.... It would be from Jason, no question.
I kinda specialize in working on unusual or rare vehicles, (diesel Jeeps for the moment) and I'm thinking about branching out to classic Teslas. THAT SAID - if I did this, I would not be a competitor to Jason at all, anything with the battery or drive unit would be sent straight to him. I'm just amazed how many people / shops are scared off by all the not-really-special-features of Tesla vehicles, and won't do simple stuff like door handles or window motors or brakes / suspension / alignment work. That's the stuff I might get into.
I have no problem with the selling of used parts, especially for non-critical stuff and for anyone that goes in with their eyes open. I spent a LOT with that boneyard (the reason I was there) so this is me too.
But EVsRepublic looked for all the world to see like a used car dealership. With that close relationship to the boneyard, I got a REALLY questionable vibe off them, like some or all of the cars sitting for sale may have had things replaced from the boneyard, and maybe they aren't telling the customer. I don't know this to be sure, but it just gave me sketchy vibes.
I've also physically been to Jason's shop - and @wk057 - MUCH respect to any businessman who will answer questions and provide advice that actually steers customer money to someone else (in this thread's case, to Tesla) b/c that takes a LOT of integrity. I haven't yet had the need to get a pack replacement, but if I was to do that and it wasn't coming from Tesla b/c of economics.... It would be from Jason, no question.
I kinda specialize in working on unusual or rare vehicles, (diesel Jeeps for the moment) and I'm thinking about branching out to classic Teslas. THAT SAID - if I did this, I would not be a competitor to Jason at all, anything with the battery or drive unit would be sent straight to him. I'm just amazed how many people / shops are scared off by all the not-really-special-features of Tesla vehicles, and won't do simple stuff like door handles or window motors or brakes / suspension / alignment work. That's the stuff I might get into.
What do they do that makes Tesla refuse accepting the pack as a core? Replacing a module or snipping a cell? Or will Tesla basically refuse any pack that they can tell has been opened by a third-party?
It does seem sort of silly that Tesla charges more for the core charge than they charge for a reman pack including installation. (Or that they are really charging $35k for a reman pack and giving you a $20k credit for the bad pack.)
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I think I joined that group as someone else noted it to me. I don't really do Facebook, but I'll try to make it a point to chime in at some point.
There's a limit to that. If the seller explicitly did something to scam the buyer that the buyer had no reasonable way to inspect at the time but was clearly the seller trying to scam the buyer, there's definitely a case there. I've personally won such a case years ago (unrelated to Tesla anything) that wasn't even as black and white as it is with these Tesla cases.
I mean, I don't really care, honestly. It's a free market (for the most part). You can do business with whomever you like, scammers and all!
Yeah, feels like that's all I do a lot of the time these days.
I'd consider it legitimate if not for the other complete scam options offered. If this was the only option offered, I'd have no issue with it. But, one of these things is true: Either a) they're scamming and no one should take any of their options, or b) they don't understand that their other options aren't viable repairs, and therefore don't know what they're doing, and again... shouldn't go with any of their options. I don't see any way to endorse using such a company based on what I see here.
I've seen them reject packs as cores when they can clearly tell a third party had opened/resealed the pack. I'm unsure what other criteria they use for certain, but every third party (besides myself) that I've seen open a Tesla pack and resealed it has not done it properly and it's quite obvious that it was not done correctly.
Their core charge seems to be a flat $20k regardless of pack type.
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
Based on the pricing for the MCU upgrade constantly changing in both directions, it does not surprise me that they would just pull a number out of their ass for the core charge.
Until someone is able to completely duplicate all of the materials and connections for the pack, I don’t think any of us will really have an understanding of what the actual manufactured cost versus profit margin would be on the entire pack.
Hopefully, a better option with better technology will be available someday and third-party builders will not have to rely on getting used packs to try and rehab. If you have Ryobi or Milwaukee tools, you certainly do not have to have genuine batteries to make the tool go zoom zoom. Yes I know this is way way more special… but the theory holds
Until someone is able to completely duplicate all of the materials and connections for the pack, I don’t think any of us will really have an understanding of what the actual manufactured cost versus profit margin would be on the entire pack.
Hopefully, a better option with better technology will be available someday and third-party builders will not have to rely on getting used packs to try and rehab. If you have Ryobi or Milwaukee tools, you certainly do not have to have genuine batteries to make the tool go zoom zoom. Yes I know this is way way more special… but the theory holds
Thank you for taking time and the pain to explain in length about this. I feel so sad that there isn't a decent shop around here in California, despite the fact that Tesla is being made here and there is a ton of cars on the road since Model S was rolled out. I wish you have a shop here. I can't find anyone else in a google search and evs guys are the ones who almost called me back as soon as I sent an email. First, they are about 120 mils away from my place and I won't be able to drive that far in the current state of my car. Secondly, I shared what I heard from them, but have no intention to choose any other options other than replacing the pack with a remanufactured one. $15k is not a small amount by any means, especially after spending $10k just 11 months ago. I love the car and I intend to keep it as long as it runs. I switched to EVs 10 years ago. The first one was a Nissan leaf. And this Tesla Model S as the 2nd car, replacing a Honda Odyssey and a Hyundai Tucson. I was jokingly telling my folks that it would take at least 15-20 years for Tesla's battery to degrade from a 240 mile range to the range of Nissan Leaf (70 miles) and I would still use it for daily commute to work (30 mile round trip) - and don't have to worry about replacing the battery. I spoke too soon. I know it's a very hard pill to swallow, but I will probably get the battery pack replaced, once I arrange my finances. I just wish there is another cost-effective option around in the area that would save me a couple of grands at least that I can use it for other critical expenses. Anyways, thanks very much once again for a detailed response. Much appreciate it.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Why the insistence that the repair is “in the area”?Thank you for taking time and the pain to explain in length about this. I feel so sad that there isn't a decent shop around here in California, despite the fact that Tesla is being made here and there is a ton of cars on the road since Model S was rolled out. I wish you have a shop here. I can't find anyone else in a google search and evs guys are the ones who almost called me back as soon as I sent an email. First, they are about 120 mils away from my place and I won't be able to drive that far in the current state of my car. Secondly, I shared what I heard from them, but have no intention to choose any other options other than replacing the pack with a remanufactured one. $15k is not a small amount by any means, especially after spending $10k just 11 months ago. I love the car and I intend to keep it as long as it runs. I switched to EVs 10 years ago. The first one was a Nissan leaf. And this Tesla Model S as the 2nd car, replacing a Honda Odyssey and a Hyundai Tucson. I was jokingly telling my folks that it would take at least 15-20 years for Tesla's battery to degrade from a 240 mile range to the range of Nissan Leaf (70 miles) and I would still use it for daily commute to work (30 mile round trip) - and don't have to worry about replacing the battery. I spoke too soon. I know it's a very hard pill to swallow, but I will probably get the battery pack replaced, once I arrange my finances. I just wish there is another cost-effective option around in the area that would save me a couple of grands at least that I can use it for other critical expenses. Anyways, thanks very much once again for a detailed response. Much appreciate it.
057 and ReCell are both happy to arrange transport. Given your car is drivable for the time being the cost should be reasonable. May or may not be the right option given your specific circumstances, but it doesn’t seem like distance to a shop is really a huge concern here.
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henderrj
Active Member
As far as the Tesla remanufactured packs. Remember that a number of people have opted for that, and gotten the brand new 90. No way you can know if you're going to get that, it all depends on whether or not Tesla has a remanufactured pack available. But, if you do get it, you definitely won the lottery! With a four year warranty that reman battery might give out on you anyway. You might get one more shot with the lottery.
There's no reason to be so dead set on that as far as third party shops. They ship cars across the country routinely and handle all of the contacting and scheduling of it and just add the transport fee. It's a pretty good option, but Jason did say that the Tesla refurb might still be the good choice.
Tesla SC confirmed that the proposed reman replacement would be a 85kwh battery (same like what I currently have), no 90.
henderrj
Active Member
Ah, sorry! Maybe it will give out during the warranty and you'll get another shot at it. Still, better than a dead pack, yes?
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
They have no way to know what will actually be sent to them to install - The company line is that it will be a refurb unit, but NOBODY will know until it shows up on the truck.
Since they are not actually manufacturing 85 packs any longer, nor are they manufacturing 60 packs.... The availability for true refurbs would rely on the number of them that they have taken back in and spent time diagnosing and rebuilding..... OR (because it takes less time and time is money) they will send out a fresh pack and just software limit it to 85.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
They have no idea what will show up until it’s there. Many many people have shared stories recently of purchasing a remanufactured replacement and receiving a brand new battery. As the supply of remanufacturable 85kwh cores dwindles, I expect this will become increasingly common.
geordi
Mr Fusion V.1
The time needed to completely disassemble and test / meter / match individual cells into modules and then pair up said modules into bricks and packs.... I can't believe there's any money in it for them now that they have massively spun up their battery manufacturing side.
I know they were also breaking down packs to make the Powerwall product - so that ALSO is a hungry product line for those used battery modules. Recycling is good, fresh batteries for the road is better.
I know they were also breaking down packs to make the Powerwall product - so that ALSO is a hungry product line for those used battery modules. Recycling is good, fresh batteries for the road is better.
henderrj
Active Member
I believe it's been concluded that they (Tesla) don't ever put in new cells or modules. They only do electronic type repair on battery packs. Might be wrong about that but that's my understanding. Also, Tesla cannot put anything used into a product they sell as new. So they aren't putting them in powerwalls themselves. Other people are indeed using used Tesla battery modules for powerwall type products. So in that, you are quite correct. They are very useful!
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I don’t think either of these claims are true. No chance they were selling new powerwalls with used cells.
I guess they have those 85kwh in stock knowing there are so many older batches on CA roads and probably knowing that they all would need HV battery replacement. I spoke to the Advisor and he indeed said that they have 85kwh ones available and it will be a morning drop off and pick up in the evening for me.
Re-cell sent their quotes with three different types of batteries 210+, 210+ Sport and 240+. All of them are 85kwh packs. The difference between 210+ and 240+ is that the former is 350v and the later is 400v, I'm not a tech savvy, but I assume that with 400v one gets more range and also the charging might be faster at SC. The 210+ best seller option is $8200. 210+ Sport costs $1600 and 240+ costs $2500 extra. All the three options exclude return shipping which would be another $1200 approx. So we're talking about a range of $9400 (210+) to $12000 (240+). Tesla hasn't given any range estimates for the reman pack in their quote and has quoted ~$15k. With re-cell planning to open their operations in CA in this summer/fall, it's lucrative to me as any issues during warranty period would be covered locally and I don't have to spend on shipping again.
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